Italian Stiletto

alex8765 · 11th March 2019, 03:33 PM

Hi gents,
What do you think about the authenticity of this stiletto? Is it 17th century original or 19th century reproduction?
It looks like Gunners Stiletto, but it's smaller (13 5/8") and without measuring scale on the blade. Is it Venetian or Brescian?
Handle has unusual design and it's made of bone.
Thanks

alex8765 · 19th March 2019, 01:53 PM

I hope I didn't ask inappropriate authenticity question.

fernando · 19th March 2019, 02:27 PM

By all means Alex. That is a rather pertinent question to place here.
Hopefully, knowledged members will chime in with their opinion.
It seems to me, ignorant as i am that, a typical gunners stiletto blade would have a different cross section, apart from the missing scales.
Say, isn't that a makers mark ? ... just curious.

.

mariusgmioc · 19th March 2019, 04:06 PM

My novice oppinion is that it is an original, albeit maybe 18th century, Italian stiletto.
I do not see any Brescian traits, but that doesn't mean it cannot be Brescian.
But certainly it is NOT a gunner's stiletto since it is precisely the gauging scales that characterise the gunners' stilettos. My two...or better yet one and a half... cents.

M ELEY · 19th March 2019, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

My novice oppinion is that it is an original, albeit maybe 18th century, Italian stiletto.
I do not see any Brescian traits, but that doesn't mean it cannot be Brescian.
But certainly it is NOT a gunner's stiletto since it is precisely the gauging scales that characterise the gunners' stilettos. My two...or better yet one and a half... cents.

No expert either, but I tend to agree, having acquired one of the later stiletto types myself-

M ELEY · 19th March 2019, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

My novice oppinion is that it is an original, albeit maybe 18th century, Italian stiletto.
I do not see any Brescian traits, but that doesn't mean it cannot be Brescian.
But certainly it is NOT a gunner's stiletto since it is precisely the gauging scales that characterise the gunners' stilettos. My two...or better yet one and a half... cents.

No expert either, but I tend to agree, having acquired one of the later stiletto types myself-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24346

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2019, 07:13 PM

The story of the 'gunners dagger' is a curious and mysterious one, as we have uncovered in past discussions. Apparently the stiletto evolved from the earlier types of misercorde, narrow thrusting daggers used in medieval times for close in combat piercing mail, or in the legendary coup de grace.
It later became the weapon of assassins, easily concealed and naturally for no other purpose than a fatal thrust.

In Renaissance Italy, these deadly weapons were outlawed however in 1661 the notorious Council of Ten in Venice (known for their 'enforcement practices') pronounced an edict in 1661 authorizing only 'bonified artillerymen' to possess these. This was because it was claimed that these thin bladed weapons were used by artillerymen to 'spike' a gun if position had to be abandoned. To ostensibly carry this purpose further, there were graduated scales and often indiscernible numbers or characters engraved in the blades. With these 'properly adorned' daggers, many men 'legitimized' them being in their possession if questioned.

According to Sir James Mann (1931) in Brescia as early as 1571, there were stilettos with a blade which expanded into calipers for measuring the bore of a gun to match the shot. Later it was presumed that the calibration in the scales were to measure powder. Other suggestions were that the thin blade penetrated the sewn powder bags. Either way, corrosion on the blades of some examples known suggest exposure to black powder.

These fell out of use by early 18th century, although (according to Mann) there was a specific legal notice to someone named Antonio Spadone in 1728 granting him permission to have such a stiletto.

It would seem that while not popularly or widely worn about due to their sinister reputation and seemingly legal concerns, there seems to have been a fanciful attraction to them specifically to these characteristics.

Many examples fashioned in this invention carried unusually and often indiscernible metering in their engraved gauging. With that it is hard to say where in the 'spectrum' this example might fall. It does appear to be of notable age and probably 18th century as suggested. I'm really not aware of Victorian reproductions.
Most interesting piece!

11th March 2019, 03:33 PM	#1
alex8765 Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: NYC Posts: 63	Italian Stiletto Hi gents, What do you think about the authenticity of this stiletto? Is it 17th century original or 19th century reproduction? It looks like Gunners Stiletto, but it's smaller (13 5/8") and without measuring scale on the blade. Is it Venetian or Brescian? Handle has unusual design and it's made of bone. Thanks Attached Images

19th March 2019, 02:27 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	By all means Alex. That is a rather pertinent question to place here. Hopefully, knowledged members will chime in with their opinion. It seems to me, ignorant as i am that, a typical gunners stiletto blade would have a different cross section, apart from the missing scales. Say, isn't that a makers mark ? ... just curious. . Attached Images

19th March 2019, 01:53 PM	#2
alex8765 Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: NYC Posts: 63	I hope I didn't ask inappropriate authenticity question.

19th March 2019, 04:06 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	My novice oppinion is that it is an original, albeit maybe 18th century, Italian stiletto. I do not see any Brescian traits, but that doesn't mean it cannot be Brescian. But certainly it is NOT a gunner's stiletto since it is precisely the gauging scales that characterise the gunners' stilettos. My two...or better yet one and a half... cents.

19th March 2019, 07:13 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	The story of the 'gunners dagger' is a curious and mysterious one, as we have uncovered in past discussions. Apparently the stiletto evolved from the earlier types of misercorde, narrow thrusting daggers used in medieval times for close in combat piercing mail, or in the legendary coup de grace. It later became the weapon of assassins, easily concealed and naturally for no other purpose than a fatal thrust. In Renaissance Italy, these deadly weapons were outlawed however in 1661 the notorious Council of Ten in Venice (known for their 'enforcement practices') pronounced an edict in 1661 authorizing only 'bonified artillerymen' to possess these. This was because it was claimed that these thin bladed weapons were used by artillerymen to 'spike' a gun if position had to be abandoned. To ostensibly carry this purpose further, there were graduated scales and often indiscernible numbers or characters engraved in the blades. With these 'properly adorned' daggers, many men 'legitimized' them being in their possession if questioned. According to Sir James Mann (1931) in Brescia as early as 1571, there were stilettos with a blade which expanded into calipers for measuring the bore of a gun to match the shot. Later it was presumed that the calibration in the scales were to measure powder. Other suggestions were that the thin blade penetrated the sewn powder bags. Either way, corrosion on the blades of some examples known suggest exposure to black powder. These fell out of use by early 18th century, although (according to Mann) there was a specific legal notice to someone named Antonio Spadone in 1728 granting him permission to have such a stiletto. It would seem that while not popularly or widely worn about due to their sinister reputation and seemingly legal concerns, there seems to have been a fanciful attraction to them specifically to these characteristics. Many examples fashioned in this invention carried unusually and often indiscernible metering in their engraved gauging. With that it is hard to say where in the 'spectrum' this example might fall. It does appear to be of notable age and probably 18th century as suggested. I'm really not aware of Victorian reproductions. Most interesting piece!