Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

[Evgeny_K]

Gents, glad to join your community.
Few days ago I've acquired this lovely saber.
Now I'm in thoughts - how to make a new grip.
It will be great if you can give me any advice.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum Evgeny.
I will copy your thread to the European section of our forum, so that you have more possibilities to get help.

[fernando]

Is that a mark on the blade?
Can you get a close up picture?
Marks are always interesting


.

[Evgeny_K]

Yes, it's marking.
But I didn't clean it yet.

[Evgeny_K]

...

[Jim McDougall]

Evgeny, first of all may I implore you to use much restraint in cleaning this extremely important sabre!
This weapon corresponds to sabres discussed some years ago in studies of the 'L-guard' hilt which apparantly may have evolved in early 17th century Eastern Europe from Italian hilts with similar feature in 15th into 16th centuries and quite probably other sources.
The site of the Battle of Beretschko (1651) in the Ukraine was excavated in the 1970s and documented in an article in 'Muzealnictwo Wojskowe' (Tome 5, 1992) : "Battle of Beretschko in 1651 in Light of Historical and Archaeological Sources" by Igor Svieschnokov.
During the Chmielnicki Uprising in 1651, Ukrainian Cossacks clashed with Polish forces, and this particular site among several thousand artifacts were some 32 sabres, many similar but three with this distinctive L guard. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" p.212) a Polish sabre with this feature is shown, and it should be noted that the thumb ring is seen on the 'Beretschko' examples. It appears that the hilt was in use in Poland sometime in the early 17th century.

The mention of these examples from this battle simply illustrates the form in use c.1651 in Eastern Europe, there are similar Austrian examples from later in the 17th century.

What is key here is the deeply stamped cartouche near the langet on the blade, which appears to carry possible Islamic script or characters. It is known that allied with the Ukrainian Cossacks were some Tatars and Turks.
In discussion of Ottoman blades of these times it does seem that stamping of blade with deep circular cartouche was known in certain cases on one side only, possibly arsenal ? It is indeed possible that an Ottoman blade might have been in a Polish sabre of the time, or that similar hilts may have been in use by the Cossacks with Turkish blade.

In discussions I have been told that Cossacks used various types of swords which included Polish types as well as Eastern (incl. Ottoman) forms, but there a few actual examples of these Ukrainian swords (except the Berestschko find). Most are the result of repairs and refurbishing which accounts for certain amalgamations rather than congruent patterns.

With this it is compelling to suggest that this may be an L guard of Eastern European form of the first half 17th century with possible associations to the Ukrainian Cossacks.

With that I would include the distinct possibility that this stamped cartouche could be a tamga, family marking used by Lithuanian Tatars, though that is a remote option. Tamgas are rarely seen on weapons to the best of my knowledge, but the Lithuanians were a large component among the Zaporozhian Cossacks, and I thought it worthy of note.

I note that you have posted this sword on another forum as well. While anticipating response there, please feel free to share any of this information with them so that they might add it to thier notes.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Addendum:
Forgot to note another feature which I overlooked, at the juncture of the crossguard and langet is the 'Maltese Cross' which is actually the heraldic 'cross pattee' in what is termed wedge form. This device was extremely popular in Poland-Lithuania as a symbol of nobility, and of course is accordingly associated with knighthood. This cross often is seen on the armour and pennons on lances of the famed 'Winged Hussars' and seems well placed on a sabre of this period.
Returning to the interesting cartouche, at a glance there is tempting (if not tenuous) resemblance to a winged figure, which while potentially suggesting the winged hussars, may also be a pictogram signifying the Turkish 'deli', light cavalry who may have influenced the winged theme of the Polish hussars.
This would again address the possibility of this blade being Turkish, which does not seem likely at this point however.

Most blades on these sabres were apparantly produced in Poland or Hungary according to Zygulski, but it is noted that many came from Styria or Genoa. If this were either Styrian or North Italian ( all blades Italian were not necessarily from Genoa, though termed so as this was primary port of departure) one would expect to see the distinctive 'sickle marks' which are paired, dentated semi circles with triple dots at each terminal.

Though the scans added are poor in quality, they might present an idea of the type of hilt grip and backstrap likely were present. The metal would most likely have been iron, the wood grip wrapped with black leather. With mounts and scabbard covered in black leather these were often colloquially termed 'black sabres' . Better illustrations of similar hilts in line drawings are in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" Eduard Wagner, 1967 (plates 7,30). Probably the best resource for detailed response would be Michal Dziewulski at the National Museum in Krakow. He wrote the outstanding article on Polish sabres connected to our forum archive site and has worked closely with Professor Zygulski .

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by fernando

Is that a mark on the blade?
Can you get a close up picture?
Marks are always interesting


.

Gentelmen,
I would appreciate for any help in identifying this mark

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I am very impressed with the result so far. This is highly specialised and advanced stuff... Now you have the blade stabilized and carbonized (will that prevent rust or is there a danger of rust continuing under the carbon? ) What is your programme of restoration for hilt and scabbard. Astonishing results so far...

I was searching for associated material and discovered a distant link to an important resource in the Forum Library on the Ethnographic that can be found by typing into search Polska szabla husarska by Wolviex .

Perhaps this can be brought onto the European for perusal please?

Thank you.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ps The stamp is upside down I think.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

the blade stabilized and carbonized (will that prevent rust or is there a danger of rust continuing under the carbon? )

Hello Ibrahiim,

It is not a carbonization process. When heating rusted metal in the pure carbon (charcoal) without access of oxygen occurs redox reaction (recovery of the metal from the oxide).

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I was searching for associated material and discovered a distant link to an important resource in the Forum Library on the Ethnographic that can be found by typing into search Polska szabla husarska by Wolviex .

Perhaps this can be brought onto the European for perusal please?

Thank you.

Done.

[napoleon]

lovely old sword why not look for an original handle,it might take a while but maybe some one in the forum has such a thing ,cant hurt to ask regards napoleon

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by napoleon

lovely old sword why not look for an original handle,it might take a while but maybe some one in the forum has such a thing ,cant hurt to ask regards napoleon

I think it's not real to find original grip for this sword, that will match the tang and crossguard.

restoration is in process
I will post some pics with the interim results of the work shortly

[Evgeny_K]

here are some pics

[Evgeny_K]

here are some pics