Controversial Hunting Sword – European with Moorish influence?

Cathey · 13th October 2009, 05:10 AM

I was asked by Jim McDougall to post this hunting sword on this forum.

Date Circa: 1800
Nationality: Cordoba, Argentina or Spain
Over Length: 62.4 cm
Blade length: 46.5 cm
Blade widest point: 4.5 cm

Marks, etc: Blade engraved decoration to 2/3rds and the name SAN RoqE. Decoration includes dear, standing man with hat, double headed eagle and ½ man with hat as well as decorative foliage.

Description: HUNTING SWORD Hispanic origin circa 1800 (Cordoba, Argentina). Ornate silver hilt includes a delicately carved bone/horn dog at the top of the grip connected to the lower end of grip by a silver chain. Matching silver work to leather scabbard with frog, end fitting missing. All silver fitting very tight and well made excellent quality. Double-headed eagle is included among the complicated decoration deeply chiselled into the blade. The name SAN RoqE [San Roque] is the Spanish form of that of the French saint known in English and French as “Saint Roch”. He was very popular, and many churches and religious institutions were dedicated to, or named after him.

General Remarks
Claude Blair provided the information re SAN RoqE and suggested its origin to be Hispanic. Every collector who has looked at this item has come up with a different origin, the only thing we can all agree on is that it is a hunting sword. The general workmanship is very fine and typical of European hunting swords, however the design and look is more Spanish with a distinctly Moorish flavour.

Cheers Cathey

Gavin Nugent · 13th October 2009, 10:06 AM

Welcome Cathey,

What a gorgeous sword!!! Thank you Cathey and thank you Jim for asking for it to be put forward.
The Falcata immeadiately comes to mind when viewing the basic profile. I think by design and Claude Blairs comments your nailed the region. The man in the hat shows Gaucho origins and I do wonder when looking at the chiselling to the blade a better appreciation of locality may come to light.

Again, very nice, I look forward to larger images if available and further comments from learned members.

Best

Gav

kronckew · 13th October 2009, 01:25 PM

wow, i really like that one, would like to see the whole blade...

Gavin Nugent · 13th October 2009, 01:32 PM

Me again, the eye candy was just to good not to come back again and have another look. I'd second Kronckew's WOW, I just noticed the return on the pommel is actually a dogs head, very Spanish in my eyes as is the engravings to the blade...I look forward to further discussion and my third view of it...

Gav

Sajen · 13th October 2009, 03:33 PM

Beautiful sword!

Lee · 14th October 2009, 04:58 PM

An amazingly innovative and well executed piece. Considering the suspicions of Argentinean origin, I took the liberty of directing Mr. Abel Domenech of Buenos Aires to this thread as I cannot imagine anyone more knowledgeable about the arms and armour of South America and he has kindly shared his thoughts and graciously allowed me to post them here.

----- Mr. Domenech's Comments -----

I personally think that it is definitively Not a piece made in Argentina, nor made abroad specifically for our market.

I can`t find the connection with Cordoba, which is one of our Provinces. Unless it has some kind of inscription on the blade or any other part which mentions it, of course.

It is true, that San Roque is a very popular Saint here, and several locations have this name, including a very well known one in the Province of Cordoba. But also the worship to San Roque Saint came here from Spain.

I agree with Cathey, that the piece has a very strong Moorish or oriental flavour, both in the shape of the sword, as in the decoration.
Acid etching (aqua forte) decoration is thoroughly used on the blade of this sword, and this technique was of common use in Toledo, were artisans were taught to use it centuries ago from the Moor invaders.

If the piece was found in Argentina territory, and not knowing about its previous owners, it is very difficult to say something about it, but simple speculation.

This is not a "gaucho edged weapon" by itself, but gauchos were known to put into use anything which came to their hands, as long as it was useful for their job, or to their taste.

It is known fact that some facones were made from Lace handle rapiers, I personally found, some years ago, a XIX Century Rodgers kandjar in the hands of a local "paisano", an also a Russian kindjal was known to be used by a notorious person during the XIX C.

Many of these pieces of weaponry came to our territories, carried by immigrants, Spanish soldiers, and adventurers, during the Conquista and later Colonial periods.

In later periods, many exotic weapons came here in hands of wealthy local people visiting Europe or the Orient, and eventually, these pieces were lost or stolen here to finally end in strange hands, without the knowledge of the real value of the piece.

It would be interesting to know a little more about the Cordoba connection, and may be the present owner could tell us why he feels that there is such a connection.

13th October 2009, 05:10 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Controversial Hunting Sword – European with Moorish influence? I was asked by Jim McDougall to post this hunting sword on this forum. Date Circa: 1800 Nationality: Cordoba, Argentina or Spain Over Length: 62.4 cm Blade length: 46.5 cm Blade widest point: 4.5 cm Marks, etc: Blade engraved decoration to 2/3rds and the name SAN RoqE. Decoration includes dear, standing man with hat, double headed eagle and ½ man with hat as well as decorative foliage. Description: HUNTING SWORD Hispanic origin circa 1800 (Cordoba, Argentina). Ornate silver hilt includes a delicately carved bone/horn dog at the top of the grip connected to the lower end of grip by a silver chain. Matching silver work to leather scabbard with frog, end fitting missing. All silver fitting very tight and well made excellent quality. Double-headed eagle is included among the complicated decoration deeply chiselled into the blade. The name SAN RoqE [San Roque] is the Spanish form of that of the French saint known in English and French as “Saint Roch”. He was very popular, and many churches and religious institutions were dedicated to, or named after him. General Remarks Claude Blair provided the information re SAN RoqE and suggested its origin to be Hispanic. Every collector who has looked at this item has come up with a different origin, the only thing we can all agree on is that it is a hunting sword. The general workmanship is very fine and typical of European hunting swords, however the design and look is more Spanish with a distinctly Moorish flavour. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

13th October 2009, 10:06 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Welcome Welcome Cathey, What a gorgeous sword!!! Thank you Cathey and thank you Jim for asking for it to be put forward. The Falcata immeadiately comes to mind when viewing the basic profile. I think by design and Claude Blairs comments your nailed the region. The man in the hat shows Gaucho origins and I do wonder when looking at the chiselling to the blade a better appreciation of locality may come to light. Again, very nice, I look forward to larger images if available and further comments from learned members. Best Gav

13th October 2009, 01:32 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Me again Me again, the eye candy was just to good not to come back again and have another look. I'd second Kronckew's WOW, I just noticed the return on the pommel is actually a dogs head, very Spanish in my eyes as is the engravings to the blade...I look forward to further discussion and my third view of it... Gav

14th October 2009, 04:58 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Concerning an Argentinean Origin An amazingly innovative and well executed piece. Considering the suspicions of Argentinean origin, I took the liberty of directing Mr. Abel Domenech of Buenos Aires to this thread as I cannot imagine anyone more knowledgeable about the arms and armour of South America and he has kindly shared his thoughts and graciously allowed me to post them here. ----- Mr. Domenech's Comments ----- I personally think that it is definitively Not a piece made in Argentina, nor made abroad specifically for our market. I can`t find the connection with Cordoba, which is one of our Provinces. Unless it has some kind of inscription on the blade or any other part which mentions it, of course. It is true, that San Roque is a very popular Saint here, and several locations have this name, including a very well known one in the Province of Cordoba. But also the worship to San Roque Saint came here from Spain. I agree with Cathey, that the piece has a very strong Moorish or oriental flavour, both in the shape of the sword, as in the decoration. Acid etching (aqua forte) decoration is thoroughly used on the blade of this sword, and this technique was of common use in Toledo, were artisans were taught to use it centuries ago from the Moor invaders. If the piece was found in Argentina territory, and not knowing about its previous owners, it is very difficult to say something about it, but simple speculation. This is not a "gaucho edged weapon" by itself, but gauchos were known to put into use anything which came to their hands, as long as it was useful for their job, or to their taste. It is known fact that some facones were made from Lace handle rapiers, I personally found, some years ago, a XIX Century Rodgers kandjar in the hands of a local "paisano", an also a Russian kindjal was known to be used by a notorious person during the XIX C. Many of these pieces of weaponry came to our territories, carried by immigrants, Spanish soldiers, and adventurers, during the Conquista and later Colonial periods. In later periods, many exotic weapons came here in hands of wealthy local people visiting Europe or the Orient, and eventually, these pieces were lost or stolen here to finally end in strange hands, without the knowledge of the real value of the piece. It would be interesting to know a little more about the Cordoba connection, and may be the present owner could tell us why he feels that there is such a connection.

13th October 2009, 01:25 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	wow, i really like that one, would like to see the whole blade...

13th October 2009, 03:33 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Beautiful sword!