Fake pistols with real locks, real pistols with fake locks

Kubur · 1st April 2016, 10:21 AM

Hi Guys,

I noticed a lot of strange combinaisons with Turkish, Moroccan and sometimes Afghan pistols. They were made by the end of the 19th and early 20th c. for the first tourist market but with real pistols no longer in use.
I will post some example later, if you have some please feel free to post them.
Thanks

Kubur

Kubur · 1st April 2016, 03:18 PM

This Turkish ball butt pistol came with a fake lock, unless the pistol is an old one, with a good stock and a barrel still with some powder inside.
To the opposite, I saw many Turkish Ottoman pistols made for tourist market but with real old locks (miquelet). Rick posted one or two examples in the past.
I have seen many Moroccan pistols with the same thing, recent stock and old lock or recent lock and old stock...
I hope the firearms lovers will understand what I'm trying to say...
I do think that's important for the community to avoid mistakes or to do some good catchs...

Battara · 1st April 2016, 06:31 PM

Kubur, this is a great idea - showing newer versus older versions! Knowledge is power (and avoids many many mistakes

).

I have seen the older examples, but not newer ones (believe it or not) so this is helpful for me.

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2016, 07:23 PM

Very much agree, a very good idea to display comparative examples to show differences between authentically known pieces and items with components incongruent or of later reproduced nature.

Some time ago there was a very good article on British pistols with various East India Co mkgs as well as some with the British makers names and GR stamps etc. but which were produced in the Khyber areas. There was a cottage industry of the innovative artisans in these areas producing guns duplicating the originals even into our times.
Here the authentic as opposed to the 'fabricated' examples were shown with the telling features explained.

As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items.

Good suggestion Kubur. As Battara notes, knowledge is power as the markets increasingly are consumed with questionable examples.

Kubur · 2nd April 2016, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items.
.

Yes I agree, it was just to have an exciting and attractive title...
They are not fake if they were intented to be produced for the tourist market.
But as you mentionned some of them appear now on the market as genuine items...
My first example, four Moroccan pistols.
2 originals, one with the classical miquelet snaphaunce lock, both Moroccan butt disc pistols.
1 most probably with an original stock and a fake lock
and the last one is a tourist production around 1920-40ties, sold sometimes with a koummiya as a panoplie set...

rickystl · 2nd April 2016, 05:59 PM

Hi Kubur.

As you and others above mention, this is a subject worth posting. First of all, if that Turkish Ball Butt pistol, with the imitation lock is in your possession, I think you should remove the lock and send the stock and barrel to me for further analysis. LOL.

I have generally viewed the Tourist pistols as either pre or post 1950. It's amazing how much work was done to the earlier specimens for a tourist item. And yes, you will see the earlier ones utilizing original locks (and occasionally hardware) with new stocks and barrels. Often the barrels are simply a piece of pipe shaped to fit. I have some photos for reference, but am away from home on business at present. I'll post some photos when I return on April 8.

Rick

1st April 2016, 10:21 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Fake pistols with real locks, real pistols with fake locks Hi Guys, I noticed a lot of strange combinaisons with Turkish, Moroccan and sometimes Afghan pistols. They were made by the end of the 19th and early 20th c. for the first tourist market but with real pistols no longer in use. I will post some example later, if you have some please feel free to post them. Thanks Kubur

1st April 2016, 03:18 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	This Turkish ball butt pistol came with a fake lock, unless the pistol is an old one, with a good stock and a barrel still with some powder inside. To the opposite, I saw many Turkish Ottoman pistols made for tourist market but with real old locks (miquelet). Rick posted one or two examples in the past. I have seen many Moroccan pistols with the same thing, recent stock and old lock or recent lock and old stock... I hope the firearms lovers will understand what I'm trying to say... I do think that's important for the community to avoid mistakes or to do some good catchs... Attached Images

1st April 2016, 06:31 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Kubur, this is a great idea - showing newer versus older versions! Knowledge is power (and avoids many many mistakes ). I have seen the older examples, but not newer ones (believe it or not) so this is helpful for me.

1st April 2016, 07:23 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Very much agree, a very good idea to display comparative examples to show differences between authentically known pieces and items with components incongruent or of later reproduced nature. Some time ago there was a very good article on British pistols with various East India Co mkgs as well as some with the British makers names and GR stamps etc. but which were produced in the Khyber areas. There was a cottage industry of the innovative artisans in these areas producing guns duplicating the originals even into our times. Here the authentic as opposed to the 'fabricated' examples were shown with the telling features explained. As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items. Good suggestion Kubur. As Battara notes, knowledge is power as the markets increasingly are consumed with questionable examples.

2nd April 2016, 05:59 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Kubur. As you and others above mention, this is a subject worth posting. First of all, if that Turkish Ball Butt pistol, with the imitation lock is in your possession, I think you should remove the lock and send the stock and barrel to me for further analysis. LOL. I have generally viewed the Tourist pistols as either pre or post 1950. It's amazing how much work was done to the earlier specimens for a tourist item. And yes, you will see the earlier ones utilizing original locks (and occasionally hardware) with new stocks and barrels. Often the barrels are simply a piece of pipe shaped to fit. I have some photos for reference, but am away from home on business at present. I'll post some photos when I return on April 8. Rick