Berber Sword with Spanish Motto

TVV · 30th May 2007, 07:44 AM

I picked up this Berber sword and I set up to clean the blade tonight. I still have a lot to go, but under the rust an inscription started to appear. It reads "PARA LOS VALIENTES DOMINICANOS", and I guess this translates to "FOR THE BRAVE DOMINICANS". I have tried to take a picture, and you can probably barely make out the last few letters of "Dominicanos", but it is quite faint. I will try to take some better pictures once the sword is clean.
I think in a previous thread it was noted that these sabres originate from Spanish Morocco, and if this is the case I guess it is not so strange for a Spanish blade to appear on a sword of this type. I am wondering though, does "Dominicanos" refer to inhabitants of Haiti (Hispaniola), or just Dominican Missionaries? If it is the former, it could make quite a story, worthy of the worst eBay descriptions (although I have not quite figured out the Confederate link yet).
I would love to get your thoughts on this piece.
Thanks,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 2nd June 2007, 09:19 AM

Hi Teodor,
I'm not sure I can add anything to the interesting motto inscribed on your sabre, but I would like to see some discussion open on this intriguing sword form. While the general consensus over the years in discussions seem to hold that these are from Spanish Morocco, with pretty compelling support, I have been advised also that these are not Moroccan. It does seem interesting that examples of these have not ever been included in groupings of the weapons from Morocco in published material, and it does seem that these have expanded from complete obscurity into an established form in growing numbers over the past 20 years.

Probably the most fascinating consistancy in most of these, aside from the unusual stylized zoomorphic hilt, is that the blades are typically 19th century cavalry sabre blades (usually British M1796) with strangely profiled points.
To confound establishing identification even more, the scabbards these are typically mounted in have a curious perpandicular extension, similar to those seen on Ethiopian shotels (mounted with military sabre blades) as seen in "African Arms & Armour".

It seems that around the end of the 19th c. and into the 20th, certain very unusual forms of edged weapons began to appear in Spanish or Latin American settings. Perhaps these were ersatz weapons put together from available surplus, but where is unclear. Another form of munitions grade sword with often crude blades and brass hilts with exaggerated finger stalls is known, and I have seen these identified as Mexican, and even Algerian, but lastly as 'bringbacks' from Cuba during the Spanish American War.
These unusual 'Berber' sabres, I have seen included in groupings of swords from Mexico, so I am wondering if these might have evolved in the situation I have described.

Or, are these indeed from Morocco, and is the decorative motif seen on hilts or mountings consistant with Moroccan work?

What we need is contemporary photographic evidence of these being carried or provenanced examples.

Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 2nd June 2007, 02:32 PM

Hi Teodor, may i come in ?
It's nice when things come to make sense.
It was expectable that, sooner or later, questions would be raised on this piece being Berber or Moroccan, as Jim expertly did.
As you well suspected, it would be implausible that the inscription was made over there, as alusive to the missionaries, and rather logic that it is Latin American work, as directed to the Dominican People in their strugle for independence.
Actually Dominicans and Franciscans have been in the Magreb, in their attempt to convert the locals ( first incursion was in the XIII century ) but never had time to warm up their seats

. It is known that some ended up executed by the sword, but i don't see the locals humor so sharp as to inscribe such phrase in their swords, even considering these missionaries were really valiant ... or crazy

.

Tim Simmons · 2nd June 2007, 05:45 PM

Can you remember the last one discussed, I said the handle looked like something from Timor. Well that one or another in that thread had a scabbard not that far away from Latin American mechete today.

Jim McDougall · 2nd June 2007, 06:38 PM

Thank you very much Fernando !

Tim, I vaguely recall that discussion and it seems that there has been some interesting support for certain Moroccan attributed weapons to possibly have actually derived from the Indonesian or Malayan regions. Could you possibly link that discussion ?

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 2nd June 2007, 07:22 PM

This is the thread. You can see what i say about the scabbard looking like latin American mechete.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...2&page=2&pp=30

30th May 2007, 07:44 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Berber Sword with Spanish Motto I picked up this Berber sword and I set up to clean the blade tonight. I still have a lot to go, but under the rust an inscription started to appear. It reads "PARA LOS VALIENTES DOMINICANOS", and I guess this translates to "FOR THE BRAVE DOMINICANS". I have tried to take a picture, and you can probably barely make out the last few letters of "Dominicanos", but it is quite faint. I will try to take some better pictures once the sword is clean. I think in a previous thread it was noted that these sabres originate from Spanish Morocco, and if this is the case I guess it is not so strange for a Spanish blade to appear on a sword of this type. I am wondering though, does "Dominicanos" refer to inhabitants of Haiti (Hispaniola), or just Dominican Missionaries? If it is the former, it could make quite a story, worthy of the worst eBay descriptions (although I have not quite figured out the Confederate link yet). I would love to get your thoughts on this piece. Thanks, Teodor Attached Images

2nd June 2007, 09:19 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hi Teodor, I'm not sure I can add anything to the interesting motto inscribed on your sabre, but I would like to see some discussion open on this intriguing sword form. While the general consensus over the years in discussions seem to hold that these are from Spanish Morocco, with pretty compelling support, I have been advised also that these are not Moroccan. It does seem interesting that examples of these have not ever been included in groupings of the weapons from Morocco in published material, and it does seem that these have expanded from complete obscurity into an established form in growing numbers over the past 20 years. Probably the most fascinating consistancy in most of these, aside from the unusual stylized zoomorphic hilt, is that the blades are typically 19th century cavalry sabre blades (usually British M1796) with strangely profiled points. To confound establishing identification even more, the scabbards these are typically mounted in have a curious perpandicular extension, similar to those seen on Ethiopian shotels (mounted with military sabre blades) as seen in "African Arms & Armour". It seems that around the end of the 19th c. and into the 20th, certain very unusual forms of edged weapons began to appear in Spanish or Latin American settings. Perhaps these were ersatz weapons put together from available surplus, but where is unclear. Another form of munitions grade sword with often crude blades and brass hilts with exaggerated finger stalls is known, and I have seen these identified as Mexican, and even Algerian, but lastly as 'bringbacks' from Cuba during the Spanish American War. These unusual 'Berber' sabres, I have seen included in groupings of swords from Mexico, so I am wondering if these might have evolved in the situation I have described. Or, are these indeed from Morocco, and is the decorative motif seen on hilts or mountings consistant with Moroccan work? What we need is contemporary photographic evidence of these being carried or provenanced examples. Best regards, Jim

2nd June 2007, 02:32 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Teodor, may i come in ? It's nice when things come to make sense. It was expectable that, sooner or later, questions would be raised on this piece being Berber or Moroccan, as Jim expertly did. As you well suspected, it would be implausible that the inscription was made over there, as alusive to the missionaries, and rather logic that it is Latin American work, as directed to the Dominican People in their strugle for independence. Actually Dominicans and Franciscans have been in the Magreb, in their attempt to convert the locals ( first incursion was in the XIII century ) but never had time to warm up their seats . It is known that some ended up executed by the sword, but i don't see the locals humor so sharp as to inscribe such phrase in their swords, even considering these missionaries were really valiant ... or crazy .

2nd June 2007, 05:45 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Can you remember the last one discussed, I said the handle looked like something from Timor. Well that one or another in that thread had a scabbard not that far away from Latin American mechete today.

2nd June 2007, 06:38 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Thank you very much Fernando ! Tim, I vaguely recall that discussion and it seems that there has been some interesting support for certain Moroccan attributed weapons to possibly have actually derived from the Indonesian or Malayan regions. Could you possibly link that discussion ? All best regards, Jim

2nd June 2007, 07:22 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This is the thread. You can see what i say about the scabbard looking like latin American mechete. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...2&page=2&pp=30