Bone Armor

Bill M · 23rd August 2007, 01:28 PM

From an old collection, of at least 40 years in age though has been well stored and shows little age or usage.

I would guess from Borneo or Sumatra.

There were some items in this collection that were not authentic (don't we all have a few?), but I am not familiar enough with armor like this to be able to tell if it is authentic or not.

Your comments?

VANDOO · 23rd August 2007, 03:55 PM

I WOULD AGREE IT IS FROM SOMEWHERE IN INDONESIA OR MALYSIA. IT LOOKS TO BE NATIVE MADE AND IN A TRADITIONAL FASHON BUT IS NOT OLD ENOUGH AND DOES NOT SHOW THE WEAR TO BE FROM A TIME WHEN SUCH ARMOR WAS USED FOR FIGHTING. I WOULD GUESS IT WAS MADE FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO SELL TO TOURISTS THE AGE GIVEN MAY BE ACCURATE IF WELL KEPT. NIAS STILL USES ITS OLD ARMOR FOR CEREMONY AND TOURIST SHOWS THE VILLAGE GAURD GETS TO WEAR THE IMPRESSIVE AND FIERCE ARMOR. A POSSIBILITY FOR YOUR ARMOR WOULD BE TORAJA I WILL LOOK AROUND TO SEE IF I CAN FIND ANY MORE INFORMATION. I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL SETS OF ARMOR BOTH OLD AND RECENT ON EBAY FROM BORNEO,TORAJA, ECT. CONGRADULATIONS A NICE SHOWY PIECE OF TRADITIONAL NATIVE ARMOR.

VANDOO · 23rd August 2007, 04:16 PM

THESE ITEMS WERE ALL SOLD FROM BORNEO THE BONE ARMOR MAY HAVE COME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE AS THERE IS A LOT OF IMPORTED ITEMS IN KUCHING JUST LIKE IN BALI. I SUSPECT THE ONE WITH THE CARVED FIGURES WAS MADE IN BORNEO AS I HAVE SEEN THIS ON BABY CARRIERS MADE THERE ALSO.

VANDOO · 23rd August 2007, 04:37 PM

HERE ARE TWO EXAMPLES OF ARMOR SAID TO BE FROM TORAJA. ONE WITH BONE PLATES ANOTHER WITH SEA BEANS. THIS SORT OF ARMOR WAS INVENTED IN PRE-CONTACT TIMES AND CAN BE FOUND OVER A WIDE AREA THE FIBER VESTS WERE PROBABLY FIRST DEVISED AND THEN IT WAS FOUND THAT ADDING SOMETHING HARD COULD MAKE THEM MORE EFFECTIVE AS WELL AS DECORATIVE. TAILSMAN WERE OFTEN ATTACHED AS WELL TO PROTECT AND BRING SUCESS IN BATTLE TROPHYS MAY ALSO HAVE BEEN ATTACHED IN THE PAST TO SHOW YOU WERE A GREAT WARRIOR (PERHAPS A BONE OR HAIR FROM AN ENEMY). I HAD A EXAMPLE OF THE OLD PLAIN FIBER ARMOR VEST FROM THE NEW GUINEA AREA AT TIMONIUM THIS YEAR. SOME OF THE MATERIALS USED WERE BONE, SEASHELL OFTEN THE ROUND END OF LARGE CONE SHELLS OR PLATES MADE OF OTHER LARGE SHELLS. TURTLE SHELL, WOOD OR COCONUT SHELL PLATES OR WHATEVER ELSE WOULD SERVE.
THIS IS YET ANOTHER FIELD WITH VERY LITTLE GOOD OLD INFORMATION AND FEW GOOD OLD PROVENANCED EXAMPLES. SO I WILL SAY MY VIEWS ARE ONLY THAT AND BASED ON MY LOGIC AND NOT ON ACTUAL REFRENCES.

Bill M · 23rd August 2007, 04:53 PM

Hi Barry,

Thank you for the feedback. Do you have any provenance on the armor that looks like mine in your pictures?

I know it is hard to tell from pictures, but would like opinions on whether this could have been tourist? Made for dance?

It is very well made. I really have no idea about authenticity. Could be authentically made for dance.

I really wish the collector has written down some info before he died.

VANDOO · 23rd August 2007, 04:53 PM

THE ULTIMATE IN THE OLD STYLE FIBER ARMOR THE GILBERT ISLANDS AND SOME MORO ARMOR.
THE MORO ARMOR IS MUCH LATER AND INCORPORATES CHAIN MAIL WHERE THE FIBER WOULD BE AND METAL PLATES FOR BONE,ECT.
THE ARMOR OF GREECE,ROME AND OTHER CIVILIZATIONS PROBABLY STARTED WITH MORE PRIMATIVE FORMS AND EVOLVED WHEN METAL WAS DISCOVERED INTO ITS MANY FORMS. YOU CAN MORE EASILY SEE THE SIMULARITYS TO THE OLD FIBER ARMOR WITH BONE PLATES IN THE MORO ARMOR THAN ARMOR FROM THE MIDDLE AGES BUT THE IDEA STARTED IN ANCIENT TIMES.

Bill M · 23rd August 2007, 05:13 PM

The study of Armor is fascinating. Early Japanese armor was made of leather, sewn together with fibers.

A great deal of thought was put into what part of the cow or other animal was the most durable. One high ranking Japanese guy had a suit or cuirass made from cow's knees. His logic was that this was the most durable leather since the cow knelt there.

Since many Japanese were Hindu, there was a prohibition against using animal products, so a very low and shunned caste was developed called the "eta" who worked with animal products. After processing into leather, the logic was that it was ok to use it.

This same logic prevailed when eating venison, which the Japanese called "mountain whale."

The early metal plates armor was held together by fibers, until chain mail was invented. Actually early Japanese armor did not use chain mail except to hold the plates together.

Japanese armor is very ingenious. There was a type that when a bow was drawn, slid back from the drawing arm to give greater flexibility, but when the arm was lowered, slid forward to cover it.

VANDOO · 23rd August 2007, 05:37 PM

UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE NO PROVENANCE ON THESE ITEMS EXCEPT THE GILBERT ISLANDS ARMOR WHICH IS FROM A BOOK AND IS IN A MUSEUM. THE OTHER EXAMPLES ARE FROM PICTURES FROM PAST AUCTIONS ON EBAY, MOSTLY SELLING FROM BALI OR KUCHING MALAYSIAN BORNEO. I HAVE SENT A PM WITH A LITTLE MORE INFO.

Dajak · 25th August 2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

From an old collection, of at least 40 years in age though has been well stored and shows little age or usage.

I would guess from Borneo or Sumatra.

There were some items in this collection that were not authentic (don't we all have a few?), but I am not familiar enough with armor like this to be able to tell if it is authentic or not.

Your comments?

Mostly none off these are real old the old ones can be found in museums or in very old collection s .
I don t now a real old one in an private collection.

Ben

23rd August 2007, 01:28 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Bone Armor From an old collection, of at least 40 years in age though has been well stored and shows little age or usage. I would guess from Borneo or Sumatra. There were some items in this collection that were not authentic (don't we all have a few?), but I am not familiar enough with armor like this to be able to tell if it is authentic or not. Your comments? Attached Images

23rd August 2007, 04:16 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW PICTURES THESE ITEMS WERE ALL SOLD FROM BORNEO THE BONE ARMOR MAY HAVE COME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE AS THERE IS A LOT OF IMPORTED ITEMS IN KUCHING JUST LIKE IN BALI. I SUSPECT THE ONE WITH THE CARVED FIGURES WAS MADE IN BORNEO AS I HAVE SEEN THIS ON BABY CARRIERS MADE THERE ALSO. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 23rd August 2007 at 04:41 PM.

23rd August 2007, 04:37 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW MORE PICTURES HERE ARE TWO EXAMPLES OF ARMOR SAID TO BE FROM TORAJA. ONE WITH BONE PLATES ANOTHER WITH SEA BEANS. THIS SORT OF ARMOR WAS INVENTED IN PRE-CONTACT TIMES AND CAN BE FOUND OVER A WIDE AREA THE FIBER VESTS WERE PROBABLY FIRST DEVISED AND THEN IT WAS FOUND THAT ADDING SOMETHING HARD COULD MAKE THEM MORE EFFECTIVE AS WELL AS DECORATIVE. TAILSMAN WERE OFTEN ATTACHED AS WELL TO PROTECT AND BRING SUCESS IN BATTLE TROPHYS MAY ALSO HAVE BEEN ATTACHED IN THE PAST TO SHOW YOU WERE A GREAT WARRIOR (PERHAPS A BONE OR HAIR FROM AN ENEMY). I HAD A EXAMPLE OF THE OLD PLAIN FIBER ARMOR VEST FROM THE NEW GUINEA AREA AT TIMONIUM THIS YEAR. SOME OF THE MATERIALS USED WERE BONE, SEASHELL OFTEN THE ROUND END OF LARGE CONE SHELLS OR PLATES MADE OF OTHER LARGE SHELLS. TURTLE SHELL, WOOD OR COCONUT SHELL PLATES OR WHATEVER ELSE WOULD SERVE. THIS IS YET ANOTHER FIELD WITH VERY LITTLE GOOD OLD INFORMATION AND FEW GOOD OLD PROVENANCED EXAMPLES. SO I WILL SAY MY VIEWS ARE ONLY THAT AND BASED ON MY LOGIC AND NOT ON ACTUAL REFRENCES. Attached Images

23rd August 2007, 04:53 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE ULTIMATE IN THE OLD STYLE FIBER ARMOR THE GILBERT ISLANDS AND SOME MORO ARMOR. THE MORO ARMOR IS MUCH LATER AND INCORPORATES CHAIN MAIL WHERE THE FIBER WOULD BE AND METAL PLATES FOR BONE,ECT. THE ARMOR OF GREECE,ROME AND OTHER CIVILIZATIONS PROBABLY STARTED WITH MORE PRIMATIVE FORMS AND EVOLVED WHEN METAL WAS DISCOVERED INTO ITS MANY FORMS. YOU CAN MORE EASILY SEE THE SIMULARITYS TO THE OLD FIBER ARMOR WITH BONE PLATES IN THE MORO ARMOR THAN ARMOR FROM THE MIDDLE AGES BUT THE IDEA STARTED IN ANCIENT TIMES. Attached Images

23rd August 2007, 03:55 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD AGREE IT IS FROM SOMEWHERE IN INDONESIA OR MALYSIA. IT LOOKS TO BE NATIVE MADE AND IN A TRADITIONAL FASHON BUT IS NOT OLD ENOUGH AND DOES NOT SHOW THE WEAR TO BE FROM A TIME WHEN SUCH ARMOR WAS USED FOR FIGHTING. I WOULD GUESS IT WAS MADE FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO SELL TO TOURISTS THE AGE GIVEN MAY BE ACCURATE IF WELL KEPT. NIAS STILL USES ITS OLD ARMOR FOR CEREMONY AND TOURIST SHOWS THE VILLAGE GAURD GETS TO WEAR THE IMPRESSIVE AND FIERCE ARMOR. A POSSIBILITY FOR YOUR ARMOR WOULD BE TORAJA I WILL LOOK AROUND TO SEE IF I CAN FIND ANY MORE INFORMATION. I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL SETS OF ARMOR BOTH OLD AND RECENT ON EBAY FROM BORNEO,TORAJA, ECT. CONGRADULATIONS A NICE SHOWY PIECE OF TRADITIONAL NATIVE ARMOR.

23rd August 2007, 05:13 PM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	The study of Armor is fascinating. Early Japanese armor was made of leather, sewn together with fibers. A great deal of thought was put into what part of the cow or other animal was the most durable. One high ranking Japanese guy had a suit or cuirass made from cow's knees. His logic was that this was the most durable leather since the cow knelt there. Since many Japanese were Hindu, there was a prohibition against using animal products, so a very low and shunned caste was developed called the "eta" who worked with animal products. After processing into leather, the logic was that it was ok to use it. This same logic prevailed when eating venison, which the Japanese called "mountain whale." The early metal plates armor was held together by fibers, until chain mail was invented. Actually early Japanese armor did not use chain mail except to hold the plates together. Japanese armor is very ingenious. There was a type that when a bow was drawn, slid back from the drawing arm to give greater flexibility, but when the arm was lowered, slid forward to cover it.

23rd August 2007, 05:37 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE NO PROVENANCE ON THESE ITEMS EXCEPT THE GILBERT ISLANDS ARMOR WHICH IS FROM A BOOK AND IS IN A MUSEUM. THE OTHER EXAMPLES ARE FROM PICTURES FROM PAST AUCTIONS ON EBAY, MOSTLY SELLING FROM BALI OR KUCHING MALAYSIAN BORNEO. I HAVE SENT A PM WITH A LITTLE MORE INFO.