Bollock / Ballock dagger

katana · 1st February 2009, 01:32 PM

Hi,
this finished recently on ePay ....looks authentic

. The listing mentions 'rune' type markings ....wondered whether anyone had any ideas to their symbolism and, whether this is genuine.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=019

Kind Regards David

kisak · 1st February 2009, 04:05 PM

Odd looking one, and a ballocks dagger in the 17th century? Blade looks rather like a ground down smallsword to me (or possibly a bayonet), but perhaps it's too wide for that if it's a 13" blade? No idea about the rune-like decorations, not traditional Nordic runes at least.

Pukka Bundook · 1st February 2009, 04:30 PM

I don't know David,
I think someone might have been playing.....
Might be wrong.... they say ther's a first time for everything!!

Is the hilt ivory?

David · 1st February 2009, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I don't know David,
I think someone might have been playing.....
Might be wrong.... they say ther's a first time for everything!!

Is the hilt ivory?

Well, i'm not so sure that someone was "playing", but i don't think this is exactly what it is being presented as either. Just a guess, but i think that this dagger was sort of pieced together to serve as a ritual dagger for someone whose lodge may have included Norse elements. The "runes" (a couple of them don't appear in any runic alphabets

) are rather crudely scratched in to the bone. The scabbard has something in Roman alphabet that i cannot read that appears magickal in it's presentation. There also appears to be the remnants of a snake that goes up the scabbard. Ritualists often choose to make there own tools or adapt pre-existing ones to the task by adorning them with the appropriate symbols. This could be a 19th century adaptation of a somewhat older blade.

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2009, 09:13 PM

"Kensington" dagger??

"...is this a dagger I see before me, art thou but a dagger of the mind, a false creation.
I see thee yet, in form as palpable as this which I now draw".
Shakespeare, "Macbeth", II , i
This appears to be a representation of the fabled 'dudgeon' dagger of medieval times whose very nature seemed to lend well to mystery in literature ,
"...well fare thee, haft with the dudgeon dagger".
Stanyhurst, "Virgil" (1583)

and further in "Macbeth";
"... and on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood".

Dudgeon was an archaic term for 'buxeum' (boxwood), a yellowish root often used to hilt Scottish daggers. The most common being the ballock ( revised to 'kidney' dagger by prudish Victorian arms writers).

While early blades are described as having been triangular on these medieval daggers whose ancestry comes from as early as the 14th century ("Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World", Harold L.Peterson, N.Y. 1968, pp.27-29) the hollow ground triangular blade here seems to favor, as noted by Kisak, an 18th century smallsword, or possibly a socket bayonet.

The hilt, with the putative runic motif, suggests possible occult associations, as also noted, and while these crudely inscribed figures do not correspond entirely with the known alphabetic characters recorded, it is known that these figures also evolved into sigil like characters in magical parlance. The early runic fugures also often had symbolic meanings of thier own individually beyond thier alphabetic value.
The occult theme seems dramatized by the unusual use of the decagon shaped pommel, the symbolism of which here, remains unclear, but interestingly suggested.
The highly costume like decoration applied to the scabbard includes the serpent, with Norse inference to the early pattern welded blades of swords, as well as its profound occult symbolism. The other jeweled and ornate decoration accents the ceremonial probability intended in this pieces use.

While these somewhat 'gothic' fabrications of the late 19th and early 20th centuries may seem disappointing to many collectors, they do carry a certain mystique and attractiveness of thier own as they have become antiques representing social and cultural groups of historic periods that often focused on neoclassic themes.

Best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 1st February 2009, 09:54 PM

Well.
Far be it from me to speak ill of something

but!
The handle is just horrible.
I'm not even sure about the blade. Reminds me a bayonet, not even a small sword.
I know there are plenty of legit Ballock daggers with triangular blades but I wouldn't have invested in this one.

1st February 2009, 01:32 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Bollock / Ballock dagger Hi, this finished recently on ePay ....looks authentic . The listing mentions 'rune' type markings ....wondered whether anyone had any ideas to their symbolism and, whether this is genuine. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=019 Kind Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 1st February 2009 at 06:34 PM.

1st February 2009, 09:13 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	"Kensington" dagger?? "...is this a dagger I see before me, art thou but a dagger of the mind, a false creation. I see thee yet, in form as palpable as this which I now draw". Shakespeare, "Macbeth", II , i This appears to be a representation of the fabled 'dudgeon' dagger of medieval times whose very nature seemed to lend well to mystery in literature , "...well fare thee, haft with the dudgeon dagger". Stanyhurst, "Virgil" (1583) and further in "Macbeth"; "... and on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood". Dudgeon was an archaic term for 'buxeum' (boxwood), a yellowish root often used to hilt Scottish daggers. The most common being the ballock ( revised to 'kidney' dagger by prudish Victorian arms writers). While early blades are described as having been triangular on these medieval daggers whose ancestry comes from as early as the 14th century ("Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World", Harold L.Peterson, N.Y. 1968, pp.27-29) the hollow ground triangular blade here seems to favor, as noted by Kisak, an 18th century smallsword, or possibly a socket bayonet. The hilt, with the putative runic motif, suggests possible occult associations, as also noted, and while these crudely inscribed figures do not correspond entirely with the known alphabetic characters recorded, it is known that these figures also evolved into sigil like characters in magical parlance. The early runic fugures also often had symbolic meanings of thier own individually beyond thier alphabetic value. The occult theme seems dramatized by the unusual use of the decagon shaped pommel, the symbolism of which here, remains unclear, but interestingly suggested. The highly costume like decoration applied to the scabbard includes the serpent, with Norse inference to the early pattern welded blades of swords, as well as its profound occult symbolism. The other jeweled and ornate decoration accents the ceremonial probability intended in this pieces use. While these somewhat 'gothic' fabrications of the late 19th and early 20th centuries may seem disappointing to many collectors, they do carry a certain mystique and attractiveness of thier own as they have become antiques representing social and cultural groups of historic periods that often focused on neoclassic themes. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st February 2009 at 09:26 PM.

1st February 2009, 04:05 PM	#2
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Odd looking one, and a ballocks dagger in the 17th century? Blade looks rather like a ground down smallsword to me (or possibly a bayonet), but perhaps it's too wide for that if it's a 13" blade? No idea about the rune-like decorations, not traditional Nordic runes at least.

1st February 2009, 04:30 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I don't know David, I think someone might have been playing..... Might be wrong.... they say ther's a first time for everything!! Is the hilt ivory?

1st February 2009, 09:54 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well. Far be it from me to speak ill of something but! The handle is just horrible. I'm not even sure about the blade. Reminds me a bayonet, not even a small sword. I know there are plenty of legit Ballock daggers with triangular blades but I wouldn't have invested in this one.