Bangkung and kris

[carlos]

Those two pieces are news in my collection too, a rare bangkung and a kris, is my first bangkung in my collection, and Im very happy with the adquisition.
I hope enjoy pictures
carlos

[carlos]

Another picture ...

[Robert]

Hello Carlos, Both of these are very nice examples and though I do not know much about kris, this one looks to have a good bit of age to it, at least to me. I am sure the experts on these will be here soon with good solid information on it. The bangkung looks to also be in great condition and one of these days I hope to be able to add one to my own collection, I just hope that it will be as nice as the one you have just acquired. My congratulations to you on your good fortune in finding these two great new additions to your ever growing collection.

Best,
Robert

[Gustav]

I am not an expert, but your kris looks a lot like a sundang version of Keris Malela from northern Malay peninsula, also the hilt has a Malay touch on it. The attached example has a Luk less, another, perhaps better example for comparison of overall shape could be the one from "Spirit of wood" (don't have the book with me).

Yet of course it doesn't mean, yours would come from Malay peninsula.

A very nice Kris!

[Sajen]

Hello Carlos,

the bankung is very nice, like Robert I still looking for one. It seems to be in very good condition.

The kris is very very interesting. I personally would lean toward that it is a 19th Moro kris but I am far away to be an expert. When I am you I would clean the blade and etch it to see what is hidden under the corrosion. I am curious what the experts will tell you about it.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

It is a pity nobody else comments this really interesting kris.

I ask myself, if the more Keris-like looking krisses, lacking "arrow" feature at the Sogokan grooves (here another arhaic kris WITH it: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=early+kris), are not more likely coming from North Borneo and/or Brunei. I think of krisses like these:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1533

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s778_full.html



To me the hilt with the leaf motif looks also kind of like from there.

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

The kris is very very interesting. I personally would lean toward that it is a 19th Moro kris

I'd agree that this a Moro kris - Sulu, early 19th c. Nice old-style hilt; note that the lower asang-asang was once (traditionally) attached with braided twine - in status examples this was often done with silver wire.

When I am you I would clean the blade and etch it to see what is hidden under the corrosion.

I don't think there is hidden twistcore here (you never know for sure unless you try though). A careful examination with a good magnifying glass should reveal some hints before doing anything that may irreversibly affect the blade.

If I were you, Carlos, I'd be very careful with cleaning up this blade and start out slowly with merely cleaning off any grime and loose rust (checking the blade closely in between). Possibly followed with very fine steel wool to remove any remaining active rust. The blade looks healthy; however, if any pitting shows up during cleaning, any extensive cleaning and etching may make it look worse and it may be preferable to keep the stable patina. As much as I'd love to see it's laminations I'd respectfully suggest not to overdo things.

BTW, is the hilt horn? Quite common with this hilt type but from the pics and the wear on both sides it might be wood as well?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

I am not an expert, but your kris looks a lot like a sundang version of Keris Malela from northern Malay peninsula, also the hilt has a Malay touch on it. The attached example has a Luk less, another, perhaps better example for comparison of overall shape could be the one from "Spirit of wood" (don't have the book with me).

Yet of course it doesn't mean, yours would come from Malay peninsula.

The hilt is an old type that can be found on either Moro or Malay examples of keris sundang.

Comparing the kruwingan and sorsoran (and associated features at the base of the blade) with the Malay malela is a valid point. However, examining the ricikan details shows that we're looking at different esthetics here and a direct Terrengganu influence/origin seems unlikely for Carlos' piece IMVHO.

A weird feature that I don't remember having seen before is the kruwingan ending asymmetrically towards the tip. Is the configuration also seen on the other side, Carlos?

I ask myself, if the more Keris-like looking krisses, lacking "arrow" feature at the Sogokan grooves <snip> are not more likely coming from North Borneo and/or Brunei.

I'm afraid, I haven't been able to detect a clear pattern for this feature yet. I believe both of your examples to be Sulu kalis as well though.

In most Moro kris these fullers, if present at all, are short - basically a tikel alis and a sraweyan ending just in front of the sogokan; however, instead of just fading out as with most Indonesian keris, they are deeply carved and almost touching each other near the midline resulting in an arrow-like appearance. It seems that there was a tendency to keep this prominent feature even if fullers continue down the blade while a few other examples don't show this arrow. Let's face it: even in Indonesian keris, prominent kruwingan running towards the tip of the blade are rare.

There certainly is a dearth of provenanced examples of kris/keris from northern Borneo including Brunei in musea as well as other collections (Alan, do you hear me? ). Those few examples I've seen had features consistent with a generic Sulu origin. The sultanates of Brunei and Sulu had a lot of ties and while their spheres of influence shifted during history, I doubt that Moro settlements along the coast of Borneo were noticeably affected by changing affiliations. Of course, the Sulu archipelago is culturally diverse to begin with and I believe it would help our understanding a lot if we were to be able to sort out the ethnic origins/distributions of the apparent kalis styles that we commonly lump as Sulu...

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

Hello Kai,

Originally Posted by kai

In most Moro kris these fullers, if present at all, are short - basically a tikel alis and a sraweyan ending just in front of the sogokan; however, instead of just fading out as with most Indonesian keris, they are deeply carved and almost touching each other near the midline resulting in an arrow-like appearance. It seems that there was a tendency to keep this prominent feature even if fullers continue down the blade while a few other examples don't show this arrow.

Kai

These few other examples, including Carlos' kris, is what actually interests me, why I am participating in this thread and why I pose a question about some possible specific smaller region of origin of these pieces, PERHAPS other then classic Sulu archipelago.

Originally Posted by kai

Let's face it: even in Indonesian keris, prominent kruwingan running towards the tip of the blade are rare.

Kai

Yes, it is rare. But it is actually a standard on Malela Type of kerisses from northern Malay peninsula and on many Carita blades from there as well.

That's why I don't understand well your sentence "However, examining the ricikan details shows that we're looking at different esthetics here and a direct Terrengganu influence/origin seems unlikely for Carlos' piece IMVHO.".
At first, I never have said, Carlos' piece would come from Terengganu, actually I did the contrary. About influence (direct or indirect), regarding this feature:

We are speaking about two regions (northern MP and possibly northern Borneo and/or Sulu archipelago), where this feature (a prominent Kruwingan down the blade, WITHOUT the "arrow" like feature) with some regularity occurs on certain blade types. Is it a coincidence, that these both are also the regions, where the variety kris/sundang as such has been produced?

Originally Posted by kai

Of course, the Sulu archipelago is culturally diverse to begin with and I believe it would help our understanding a lot if we were to be able to sort out the ethnic origins/distributions of the apparent kalis styles that we commonly lump as Sulu...

Kai

I absolutely agree.

Regards,
Gustav