S Stamp on British Swords

Bryce · 5th February 2021, 06:17 AM

G'day Guys,
I have come across several examples of British officers' swords from around 1800 that have an "S" stamp on their ricasso, in a similar way that Osborn marked swords have a "G" stamp. Most aren't maker marked, but a couple have Prosser marked scabbards and three have blades marked to Dawes. A search of the internet hasn't produced very many examples of Dawes marked officer quality swords. Dawes seems to have been a prolific producer of troopers' swords. I am wondering if the S stamp may have been an inspection stamp used by Dawes?

Does anybody have a Dawes marked officer sword they can check for S stamps?

Cheers,
Bryce

CutlassCollector · 6th February 2021, 11:50 AM

I don't know if this is any help as it is later, around 1850s.

The Royal Navy was having trouble procuring enough good quality cutlass blades in England so thousands were ordered from several manufacturers in Solingen. The brits set up an inspection team there and these blades were stamped with an S for Solingen as opposed to E for Enfield or B for Birmingham.

regards,
CC

Bryce · 6th February 2021, 09:23 PM

Thanks CC,
Originally I thought the S may have had something to do with Solingen, as I know Prosser did use Runkel marked blades from Solingen, but I no longer think so. I have also seen an S stamp on the tang of an early Osborn marked blade, which may or may not be related to these blades with an S on the ricasso.
Cheers,
Bryce

adrian · 6th February 2021, 10:15 PM

The brits set up an inspection team there and these blades were stamped with an S for Solingen as opposed to E for Enfield or B for Birmingham.

I suspect that if viewers were sent to Solingen to inspect swords for the Board of Ordnance they would be have been given a stamp that included a crown & inspectors identification number, as well as a location letter, which was standard practice. For example, when Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifles were contracted from M. Escoffier of St.Etienne in France, a team of three viewers with a supervisor were sent by the Ordnance department to view the rifles and they had stamps with Crown over F over 1, 2 or 3.

I don't know what an 'S' on its own on these swords represents, but it is not, I feel sure, the Ordnance's inspection stamp for Solingen.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2021, 11:24 PM

As Adrian has noted, according to Robson (1996), the viewing marks were:
B= Birmingham
BR= Birmingham repair
E= Enfield
L=Liege
S=Solingen
W=Wilkinson

These used from c. 1820 and were a crown over letter and number (presumably inspector)under those.

The single capital letters as seen on Gill, Osborn etc. blades seem to have had some other value or meaning. As we have found, the use of these letters seem to defy logic or consistency.
With G we thought it was Gill, but the G was not on Gill blades, but was on Osborn, then the GG, again Osborn but with Gunby?
It seems there was a letter P which arose as well.
I recall the P occurring on North European blades (I think Swedish).
Somewhere in the esoterica of records there must be an answer.

While S for Solingen sounds simplistic, it does not seem far fetched when the volume of blades going through the bureaucratic web is considered.
Perhaps with large blocks of blades coming in from Solingen, a simple letter without all the usual protocol might have existed as an ad hoc provision for a period .

Will M · 6th February 2021, 11:55 PM

The markings required for the country of manufacture shows how well governments controlled and taxed their people even 100's of years ago. I read it was profitable enough to smuggle in blades under the noses of customs officials.
I can imagine smuggling more easily done in the past though also more dangerous if caught or the weather changed.

5th February 2021, 06:17 AM	#1
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	S Stamp on British Swords G'day Guys, I have come across several examples of British officers' swords from around 1800 that have an "S" stamp on their ricasso, in a similar way that Osborn marked swords have a "G" stamp. Most aren't maker marked, but a couple have Prosser marked scabbards and three have blades marked to Dawes. A search of the internet hasn't produced very many examples of Dawes marked officer quality swords. Dawes seems to have been a prolific producer of troopers' swords. I am wondering if the S stamp may have been an inspection stamp used by Dawes? Does anybody have a Dawes marked officer sword they can check for S stamps? Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

6th February 2021, 11:50 AM	#2
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	I don't know if this is any help as it is later, around 1850s. The Royal Navy was having trouble procuring enough good quality cutlass blades in England so thousands were ordered from several manufacturers in Solingen. The brits set up an inspection team there and these blades were stamped with an S for Solingen as opposed to E for Enfield or B for Birmingham. regards, CC

6th February 2021, 09:23 PM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	Thanks CC, Originally I thought the S may have had something to do with Solingen, as I know Prosser did use Runkel marked blades from Solingen, but I no longer think so. I have also seen an S stamp on the tang of an early Osborn marked blade, which may or may not be related to these blades with an S on the ricasso. Cheers, Bryce

6th February 2021, 10:15 PM	#4
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 125	The brits set up an inspection team there and these blades were stamped with an S for Solingen as opposed to E for Enfield or B for Birmingham. I suspect that if viewers were sent to Solingen to inspect swords for the Board of Ordnance they would be have been given a stamp that included a crown & inspectors identification number, as well as a location letter, which was standard practice. For example, when Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifles were contracted from M. Escoffier of St.Etienne in France, a team of three viewers with a supervisor were sent by the Ordnance department to view the rifles and they had stamps with Crown over F over 1, 2 or 3. I don't know what an 'S' on its own on these swords represents, but it is not, I feel sure, the Ordnance's inspection stamp for Solingen.

6th February 2021, 11:24 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	As Adrian has noted, according to Robson (1996), the viewing marks were: B= Birmingham BR= Birmingham repair E= Enfield L=Liege S=Solingen W=Wilkinson These used from c. 1820 and were a crown over letter and number (presumably inspector)under those. The single capital letters as seen on Gill, Osborn etc. blades seem to have had some other value or meaning. As we have found, the use of these letters seem to defy logic or consistency. With G we thought it was Gill, but the G was not on Gill blades, but was on Osborn, then the GG, again Osborn but with Gunby? It seems there was a letter P which arose as well. I recall the P occurring on North European blades (I think Swedish). Somewhere in the esoterica of records there must be an answer. While S for Solingen sounds simplistic, it does not seem far fetched when the volume of blades going through the bureaucratic web is considered. Perhaps with large blocks of blades coming in from Solingen, a simple letter without all the usual protocol might have existed as an ad hoc provision for a period .

6th February 2021, 11:55 PM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	The markings required for the country of manufacture shows how well governments controlled and taxed their people even 100's of years ago. I read it was profitable enough to smuggle in blades under the noses of customs officials. I can imagine smuggling more easily done in the past though also more dangerous if caught or the weather changed.