Antique Chinese QiJia Saber

ltp95002 · 18th August 2016, 08:07 PM

Just to add some interests to Chinese saber, here is a nice example of Qi Jia Dao. Starting in Ming, to improve the quality of its sabers, these sabers started to be made modeling after Japanese sword. In the collector's circle they are called Qi Jia Dao, as legend has it were first made for the famous general Qi Ji-guang. This style continued into early Qing.

This sample has an interesting groove, and the iron fittings are unique as well. The fittings has remnant of silver decoration, but hard to show in the pictures.

Sajen · 19th August 2016, 01:50 PM

Interesting piece, are you going to restore it?

Regards,
Detlef

Miguel · 19th August 2016, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltp95002

Just to add some interests to Chinese saber, here is a nice example of Qi Jia Dao. Starting in Ming, to improve the quality of its sabers, these sabers started to be made modeling after Japanese sword. In the collector's circle they are called Qi Jia Dao, as legend has it were first made for the famous general Qi Ji-guang. This style continued into early Qing.

This sample has an interesting groove, and the iron fittings are unique as well. The fittings has remnant of silver decoration, but hard to show in the pictures.

Hi,
Interesting sword. You can see the Japanese influence in the blade and the groove looks very similar in size and position as the grooves in some Japanese military swords that I have in my collection. Thanks for sharing.

ltp95002 · 19th August 2016, 08:58 PM

Yes at some point this will be polished and restored.

This is similar to Japanese sword, but the groove probably has more an Arabian influence. If you look this has a double grooves that meet at the end near guard.

Philip · 2nd September 2016, 01:00 AM

Agreed, the single to double channel effect you see on this fullering has little to do with the Japanese tradition, it is far more apparent in the sword cultures of parts of the Middle East and, more importantly, Europe during the 16th-18th cents. If someone can give me hints on how to post images, I'll share some (tried the click and drag and it doesn't work

Rick · 2nd September 2016, 02:19 AM

To help you get started:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

Philip · 3rd September 2016, 12:04 AM

Thanks, Rick, I figured out the process but my pics are all too large for the forum platform. Members suggest several software programs to shrink them, don't know which to pick. Do you have a favorite among those that's efficient and easy?

benny.lee · 10th October 2016, 06:23 AM

Strictly speaking
This is not called “QI JIADAO"

benny.lee · 10th October 2016, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltp95002

Just to add some interests to Chinese saber, here is a nice example of Qi Jia Dao. Starting in Ming, to improve the quality of its sabers, these sabers started to be made modeling after Japanese sword. In the collector's circle they are called Qi Jia Dao, as legend has it were first made for the famous general Qi Ji-guang. This style continued into early Qing.

This sample has an interesting groove, and the iron fittings are unique as well. The fittings has remnant of silver decoration, but hard to show in the pictures.

The DAO is very interesting.

josh stout · 13th October 2016, 06:10 PM

I agree, it is not what I would call a “Qijia dao”.

‘Qijia” is a collectors’ term referring to sabers with a willow leaf shape and no fullers. As Philip points out, the curved blade shape more likely had its origin in the step peoples, and “Qijia” is an after the fact name to explain early willow leaf blades with a faceted diamond shaped cross section. Examples with good age and a faceted cross section may well be Ming, but they lack faceted tips and the upward angled hilts of Japanese blades. Willow leaf blades without faceting and without fullers are also sometimes called “Qijia”, but they seem to come from the mid to late 19th c..

Thank you Philip for your lovely photos of fullers showing outside influences on Chinese sabers.

Here is an example of what I would call a Qijia dao with a heavy faceted blade. The faceting is worn with age, but it is quite obvious in person. There is no sign of faceting at the tip and the hilt continues the blade profile. It was re-hilted at a later date with typical 19th c. village workmanship, but the blade itself was once very fine and could be Ming.

mariusgmioc · 14th October 2016, 11:25 AM

Hello,

Just a few thoughts regarding the Dao of the original posting.

While the condition of the blade makes very difficult to have a positive ID, I am inclined to believe this is an imported Japanese blade.

The fuller, both in shape and position, is also quite typical "bo-hi" of the Japanese blades.

During the late 16th century, Japanese blades (mostly mass produced) were heavily traded with China and Korea and many ended up with in Chinese and Korean mounts. And I think this is one of them.

josh stout · 14th October 2016, 04:31 PM

Not being an expert in Japanese swords and having seen similar swords from China, I would like to know your reasoning. I thought that in Japanese blades the hilt does not turn down (toward the edge) from the blade like in Chinese sabers and the one shown. I also thought that a diamond cross section with a faceted tip were also common. I don't see those characteristics in the example shown. Were Japanese blades made to look just like Chinese blades for export? If so, how can you tell them apart? The pattern of the fuller does not look out of the ordinary for a Chinese blade. My understanding of Japanese swords is that they had a softer core with a hard steel jacket while Chinese blades have a hard edge inserted into a softer back. Which one of these techniques do you see in this blade? Is this an appropriate way to differentiate the two in your opinion?

Timo Nieminen · 15th October 2016, 09:05 AM

I've seen photos of supposedly Japanese-made Ming swords with the tangs exposed, and their tangs look like typical Chinese tangs. So either (a) their identification as Japanese was incorrect, or (b) the Japanese made Chinese-style tangs for export blades, or (c) the tangs were locally modified.

I'd just add that sanmei/three-plate and inserted-edge construction were used in Japan. AFAIK, kobuse (hard skin, soft core) lamination became dominant in the Edo Period, and sanmei/sanmai was the most common before that.

mariusgmioc · 15th October 2016, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

Not being an expert in Japanese swords and having seen similar swords from China, I would like to know your reasoning. I thought that in Japanese blades the hilt does not turn down (toward the edge) from the blade like in Chinese sabers and the one shown. I also thought that a diamond cross section with a faceted tip were also common. I don't see those characteristics in the example shown. Were Japanese blades made to look just like Chinese blades for export? If so, how can you tell them apart? The pattern of the fuller does not look out of the ordinary for a Chinese blade. My understanding of Japanese swords is that they had a softer core with a hard steel jacket while Chinese blades have a hard edge inserted into a softer back. Which one of these techniques do you see in this blade? Is this an appropriate way to differentiate the two in your opinion?

Hello Josh,

Yes, you are right with your questions and I will try to answer.

As far as I know, the Japanese blades that were exported, were no different from the standard mass produced Katanas. They were the classic shinogi-zukuri shape with the nakago/tang somehow bent towards the back of the blade.

Regarding this sword, I believe I can recognize the shinogi-zukuri shape but the tip/kissaki could have been reshaped. By carefully examining the blade (see the photo), one can observe that it appears to have a ridge - shinogi - meaning the blade is flat in the area of the fuller, with the surfaces of the blade parallel, and is wedge shaped at the edge (the ridge being the border between the flat and the wedge areas) which would be a good indicator of Japanese origin.

True, the hilt is bent towards the edge but this can be easily done by adapting the mounting of the hilt to be his way. If you look at the hilt of this sword, it seems a little offset towards the back and is not following the line of the blade. This may be the resullt of the necessity to compensate for the differently shaped tang (as the Japanese tangs are slanted towards the back of the blade).

As with regards to the structure of the steel, that cerainly cannot be discerned unless the blade is polished and then metalographically examined.

18th August 2016, 08:07 PM	#1
ltp95002 Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 3	Antique Chinese QiJia Saber Just to add some interests to Chinese saber, here is a nice example of Qi Jia Dao. Starting in Ming, to improve the quality of its sabers, these sabers started to be made modeling after Japanese sword. In the collector's circle they are called Qi Jia Dao, as legend has it were first made for the famous general Qi Ji-guang. This style continued into early Qing. This sample has an interesting groove, and the iron fittings are unique as well. The fittings has remnant of silver decoration, but hard to show in the pictures. Attached Images

2nd September 2016, 01:00 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	grooves Agreed, the single to double channel effect you see on this fullering has little to do with the Japanese tradition, it is far more apparent in the sword cultures of parts of the Middle East and, more importantly, Europe during the 16th-18th cents. If someone can give me hints on how to post images, I'll share some (tried the click and drag and it doesn't work

2nd September 2016, 02:19 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Photos To help you get started: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

3rd September 2016, 12:04 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	images Thanks, Rick, I figured out the process but my pics are all too large for the forum platform. Members suggest several software programs to shrink them, don't know which to pick. Do you have a favorite among those that's efficient and easy?

13th October 2016, 06:10 PM	#10
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I agree, it is not what I would call a “Qijia dao”. ‘Qijia” is a collectors’ term referring to sabers with a willow leaf shape and no fullers. As Philip points out, the curved blade shape more likely had its origin in the step peoples, and “Qijia” is an after the fact name to explain early willow leaf blades with a faceted diamond shaped cross section. Examples with good age and a faceted cross section may well be Ming, but they lack faceted tips and the upward angled hilts of Japanese blades. Willow leaf blades without faceting and without fullers are also sometimes called “Qijia”, but they seem to come from the mid to late 19th c.. Thank you Philip for your lovely photos of fullers showing outside influences on Chinese sabers. Here is an example of what I would call a Qijia dao with a heavy faceted blade. The faceting is worn with age, but it is quite obvious in person. There is no sign of faceting at the tip and the hilt continues the blade profile. It was re-hilted at a later date with typical 19th c. village workmanship, but the blade itself was once very fine and could be Ming. Attached Images

19th August 2016, 01:50 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,775	Interesting piece, are you going to restore it? Regards, Detlef

19th August 2016, 08:58 PM	#4
ltp95002 Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 3	Yes at some point this will be polished and restored. This is similar to Japanese sword, but the groove probably has more an Arabian influence. If you look this has a double grooves that meet at the end near guard.

10th October 2016, 06:23 AM	#8
benny.lee Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 42	Strictly speaking This is not called “QI JIADAO"

14th October 2016, 11:25 AM	#11
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello, Just a few thoughts regarding the Dao of the original posting. While the condition of the blade makes very difficult to have a positive ID, I am inclined to believe this is an imported Japanese blade. The fuller, both in shape and position, is also quite typical "bo-hi" of the Japanese blades. During the late 16th century, Japanese blades (mostly mass produced) were heavily traded with China and Korea and many ended up with in Chinese and Korean mounts. And I think this is one of them.

14th October 2016, 04:31 PM	#12
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Not being an expert in Japanese swords and having seen similar swords from China, I would like to know your reasoning. I thought that in Japanese blades the hilt does not turn down (toward the edge) from the blade like in Chinese sabers and the one shown. I also thought that a diamond cross section with a faceted tip were also common. I don't see those characteristics in the example shown. Were Japanese blades made to look just like Chinese blades for export? If so, how can you tell them apart? The pattern of the fuller does not look out of the ordinary for a Chinese blade. My understanding of Japanese swords is that they had a softer core with a hard steel jacket while Chinese blades have a hard edge inserted into a softer back. Which one of these techniques do you see in this blade? Is this an appropriate way to differentiate the two in your opinion?

15th October 2016, 09:05 AM	#13
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	I've seen photos of supposedly Japanese-made Ming swords with the tangs exposed, and their tangs look like typical Chinese tangs. So either (a) their identification as Japanese was incorrect, or (b) the Japanese made Chinese-style tangs for export blades, or (c) the tangs were locally modified. I'd just add that sanmei/three-plate and inserted-edge construction were used in Japan. AFAIK, kobuse (hard skin, soft core) lamination became dominant in the Edo Period, and sanmei/sanmai was the most common before that.