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#1 |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
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Hi Folks,
Over the years there has been much discussion on this forum about the properties of Wootz, and recently the metallurgist Dr Larrin Thomas has posted a very informative video on this legendary steel: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2024/04/...amascus-steel/ Whilst probably not the last word on this subject, it nevertheless gives us a fairly good idea of what Wootz was like in its heyday. Cheers Chris |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
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Very interesting paper but only from the metallurgical point of view as it researches the properties of modern, recently made wootz that is massively different from antique wootz.
Moreover, even modern wootz displays a very wide spectrum of properties contingent on its primary composition and heat treatment. For example, I have a wootz Cossack knife made of drill bits that has a very high hardness that I estimate to be around 60 HRC. I also have another recently made wootz hunting knife with a significantly softer blade of around 52 HRC. Yet, both these blades are vastly superior from the mechanical point of view to my antique wootz blades. Regarding the antique wootz, there is also quite vast bibliography starting with the works of M. Faraday, going through the research of Verhoeven & Pendray and ending with the papers of Ann Feuerbach. As a constant, antique wootz is of considerably lower quality than modern wootz in terms of edge retention (hardness) and toughness. I have many Persian, Indian and Ottoman wootz blades and many needed repairs and maintenance so I can approximate their mechanical properties by the way they behave when subjected to bending and polishing. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Jun 2021
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On a similar note, did wootz blades have a higher carbon content when compared to a contemporary non wootz European blade? Because I’ve seen European sabre blades be more resistant to rust then say a wootz blade from the same time period.
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#4 | |
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Hi,
Quote:
Of course, the carbon content of contemporary European steel varied greatly due to inexact manufacturing, but on average was lower than that of Wootz. I hasten to add that corrosion resistance is also significantly influenced by other factors such as surface smoothness, degree of cold working and impurities. Cheers Chris |
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#5 | |
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Hi mariusgmioc,
Good obeservations! Quote:
A note here on edge retention. The slicing edge retention CATRA test conducted by Larrin does not equate with push cutting nor with edge stability. Slicing edge retention of steels is largely dependent on carbide content, and in this respect Woots does fairly well. Push cut edge retention and edge stability depend on a combination of high yield point and impact toughness. Hardness is only an approximate indicator of these properties. I have no first had experience with antique hardened Wootz, but after watching the video, am inclined to think that it had low toughness but decent combined edge retention, always allowing for the inevitable wide variability due to inexact manufacturing. Cheers Chris |
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#6 |
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#7 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 52
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#8 | |
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Location: Australia
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Even the men’s swords were of English manufacture, with broad curved blades in the old dragoon style—the weapon which had achieved the British cavalry triumphs under Marlborough and Welling¬ ton—and the ‘cast’ blades were much sought after by Baluch tribesmen who loved a good sword and recognized their superiority to the pro¬ ductions of the smithies of Shikarpur. All that Jacob claimed for these English sabres is borne out by another high authority in cavalry matters, Captain Nolan. When Jacob speaks of the peace of his border being maintained by the ‘good swords of the Scinde Horse’ the phrase may not have been wholly figurative. See https://archive.org/stream/JacobW/Jacob%28W%29_djvu.txt Of course, he does not say if the said smithies of Shikarpur produced Wootz swords, but the troopers preference was clearly for English steel. Cheers Chris |
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#9 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
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However, wootz continued to thrive due to its exoticism, reputation, and due to the inability of European smiths to reproduce it and the fascination that derived from this. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 2nd May 2024 at 09:51 PM. |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Apr 2023
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All wootz is crucible ultra high carbon steel. Ultra high carbon steel is clearly defined.
Wootz itself is not so clear. It's ultra high carbon steel, but could also be: - modern - traditional - pattern X - pattern Y - a little vanadium - a little manganese - etc. The ancient method of forging ultra high carbon steel made those blades superior to all other blades. |
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#11 | |
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Dear Chris Evans, I have to say that https://knifesteelnerds.com/2024/04/...amascus-steel/ is the best reference material I have ever seen on the subject. Thanks for that. Peter Hudson. |
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#12 |
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For anyone interested in this topic:
Khaidakov K.S., Sukhanov D.A. (2024). H" https://historical-weapons.com... _io_13_2024.pdf https://elar.urfu.ru/bitstream... _03_135-140.pdf |
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#13 | |
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Thanks for the links, but I could not find the article that the first like was supposed to take me to and got an error message on the second one. What am I doing wrong? Cheers Chris |
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#14 | |
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https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co...io_13_2024.pdf https://elar.urfu.ru/bitstream/10995...03_135-140.pdf Regards, Yuri |
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#15 | |
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Many thanks for the links. Unfortunately they are in Cyrillic script, so I will have a difficult time in reading them. Do you know of an English translation? Cheers Chris |
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#16 | |
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Cheers Chris |
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