The Jaigarh Fort and its cannon ...

fernando · 20th July 2019, 03:07 PM

A resume extracted from an article posted in "The Cellar" ...

Jaigarh Fort is located on a hill called the Cheel Ka Teela, looking over the Amer Palace. It once held the treasures of the royal family of the Maharaja of Jaipur. It is the only fort in India that houses its own cannon factory. The art of cannon making was brought to India by the Mughals. The Maharaja of Jaipur, having collaborated with the Mughals, learned cannon making and built a cannon factory at Jaigarh.
This factory has produced some massive cannons, of which the most famous one is Jaivana - the largest wheeled cannon in the world! Jaivana was cast and forged in 1720 in the Jaigarh fort itself. The barrel has floral design. An elephant rests on the tip of the barrel and a pair of peacocks are carved in the center. The two thick rings on the barrel were used for lifting it with the help of a crane which, though incomplete, is still lying in Jaigarh. A pair of ducks also decorates the rear of the barrel. The barrel of the cannon weighs 50 tonnes. The carriage weighs a lot more! It is said that it took four elephants to turn the cannon around.The length of the cannon barrel is 6.15 mts. The diameter of the bore of the barrel is 28 cm and the thickness of the barrel at the tip is 21.6 cm. Jaivan rests on a high two-wheeled carriage. The wheels are 1.37 m in diameter. The carriage is equipped with two removable additional wheels for transport. The removable wheels are 2.74 m in diameter. About 100 kg of gunpowder fired a shot ball weighing 50 kg. The Jaivana Cannon was only fired once by the Jai Singh II, as a test-fire in 1720. The most exaggerated myth claims that the weapon had a range of 40 km, other sources say it is 35, 22 and 11 km, although the exact range could perhaps never be determined. After studies on the period ballistics,the highest probably muzzle velocity would be around 1500 to 1700 feet/second. This would give a maximum ballistic range of around 5000 yards to 3 miles.
Regarding this, i have a narration that an Indian cannon, way larger than this one, was dismantled in Goa by order of the Portuguese Vice-Roy in 1848, to be minted in bronze coins, which at the time were missing for chance money, thus over inflating the value silver coins.

.

Philip · 21st July 2019, 12:01 AM

Thank you, Nando, for this contribution!

A magnificent piece of artillery. I notice that for something from the first half of the 18th cent., its design is somewhat conservative, for the presence of the loose-rings in integral "eyes" cast integral with the tube, on its upper surface. These, for the purpose of lifting via a crane, in lieu of the so-called "dolphins" characteristic of Western guns from the 16th cent. until the end of the muzzle loading period, second half 19th.

The system of rings, generally two sets of pairs, is characteristic of most cannons worldwide beginning in the age of bombards and lasting a century or so. There are early Portuguese guns in the Museu Militar de Lisboa which this design, and rather finely-cast at that which I'm sure you're familiar with.

Considering the influence of the Portuguese in the development of firearms and gunnery in the East, it's not surprising to see the feature on Indian guns as well. Robert Elgood's Hindu Arms and Ritual p 50 illustrates a massive wrought iron tube preserved at Tanjore, fabricated in south India in the 16th cent., with the same system of lifting rings. The shape and construction of that gun is reminiscent of what was used during the siege of Constantinople in 1453. For something made in the 1600s its design is quite dated by Western standards although similar albeit smaller cannon were made and used in China, Korea, and Burma until even later.

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2019, 08:10 PM

This is a fascinating post, and speaks well to the educational and research elements of these forums. While I admit to having little knowledge overall on artillery and ordnance, this huge cannon inspired me to learn more, not just on this amazing piece, but on others.
Further encouraged by Philip's insight, I found what I could online and recalled some time ago, another huge cannon, Mons Meg in Edinburgh, which is apparently a 'bombard'.

Mons Meg, which is 15ft. long and a 20" barrel, firing a 369 Lb. ball.

Jaivana is 20.2" long and an 11" barrel firing a 11 pound ball.

Focus on Jagargh Fort, which was apparently built overlooking Amber Fort and the palace to guard the royal family. It is on a promontory on the hill called Cheel ka Teela (as noted) and which means hill of eagles. Here in the Aravali range it seems there is an abundance of iron, clearly well providing for the casting of cannon, which they could cast in a day many of 16 ft.

It is said that the firing of Jaivana cannon took 220 lbs of powder , which had the handling soldiers taking refuge in water barrels to prevent burns from the intense heat generated. While Mons Meg had huge caliber, the Jaivana had range of up to 22 miles if I have read correctly.

Only fired once, as the Rajputs were allied with the Mughals in these times, it still represented a formidable threat to any attacking forces.

The Mons Meg cannon apparently burst in 1680, rendering it effectively inert and I wonder if that was from the manner of construction which consisted of iron staves rather than solid cast iron.

Thank you for this thread, and the opportunity to learn more on this dramatically large piece of artillery.

Images of Jaigargh fort as seen from Amber Fort and looking down from it to Amber Fort.
Bottom, Mons Meg at Edinburgh

fernando · 23rd July 2019, 10:40 PM

Jim, while you have certainly read such notes about the Jaivana, let me please recall the data presented in my first post and the following further details i originally omitted, in order not to be so boring; this will perhaps gives us a more balanced contest with the Mons Meg, often approached in previous discussions. Besides my impertinent correction, the data is now in Royal units, as metrics could create some confusion.

The Jaivana barrel is 20.2 ft. long (not "

) and weighs 50 tonnes.
The carriage weighs a lot more! It was rumored that it took four elephants to turn the cannon around.
Its circumference at the tip measures 7.2 ft.
Its caliber is indeed 11", but fires a 110 pound projectile, expelled by 220 lbs of powder.
It rests on two wheels measuring in diameter 4.5 ft. Two removable wheels measuring 9.0 ft. are used for its transport.
The Jaivana Cannon was only fired once by the Jai Singh II, as a test-fire in 1720. The most exaggerated myth claims that the weapon had a range of 40 km (25 mi), other sources say it is 35, 22 and 11 km (6.8 mi), although the exact range could perhaps never be determined without adequate scientific computation.

And, in order to "defend my dame", i recall once more that a Portuguese Vice-Roy had one melted, twice its size, to mint bronze coins.
This was the reason for RD having published (within his circle) the Jaivana article.

Philip · 24th July 2019, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Further encouraged by Philip's insight, I found what I could online and recalled some time ago, another huge cannon, Mons Meg in Edinburgh, which is apparently a 'bombard'.

Mons Meg, which is 15ft. long and a 20" barrel, firing a 369 Lb. ball.

Jaivana is 20.2" long and an 11" barrel firing a 11 pound ball.

It is said that the firing of Jaivana cannon took 220 lbs of powder , which had the handling soldiers taking refuge in water barrels to prevent burns from the intense heat generated. While Mons Meg had huge caliber, the Jaivana had range of up to 22 miles if I have read correctly.

The Mons Meg cannon apparently burst in 1680, rendering it effectively inert and I wonder if that was from the manner of construction which consisted of iron staves rather than solid cast iron.

You're most welcome, Jim. Thank you for taking an interest, I know that this subject is outside your bailiwick. It's great that you presented a comparison piece, Mons Meg, with essential technical info. Here are some comments on the interesting points you raise.

1. First, a question for you. Do you have R D Smith / R R Brown, Bombards: Mons Meg and Her Sisters (Royal Armouries Monographs series, 1989)? It quite clearly lays out the elements which define a bombard, a type of mega-artillery which originated in the final decades of the Middle Ages. We can see from this that they can be distinguished, by their design and construction, from large cannon of later eras. The most obvious difference, and which affected ballistics and field performance, was the fact that bombards were constructed of forged wrought iron, consisting of longitudinal staves forming a tube stabilized by an outer shell of forge-welded hoops and reinforcing mouldings. (hence, in English the word for the tubular portion of a gun is "barrel"). The inherent limitations of this method led to its abandonment by the turn of the 16th cent. in favor of cast pieces in bronze or iron.

2. The bursting of Mons Meg in 1680 makes a modern reader wonder who might have thought that it was still safe to shoot over 230 years after its manufacture, and apparently being exposed to the elements for much of that time. Here is an object built up of numerous iron pieces welded together with heat and hammer (a remarkable feat in and of itself) -- all those mating surfaces, interstices which are subject to slag inclusions, incomplete welds, etc., coupled with the corrosive effects of atmospheric moisture for many years...

Not to mention that between the mid-1400s and 1680, gunpowder manufacture had improved markedly. Early powder was ground to the consistency of flour or "meal" -- it tended to settle into its constituent ingredients during transport, and its consistency impeded efficient combustion because insufficient oxygen got into the mixture. During the 15th cent, it was found that powder of "corned" or granular consistency made for faster and more consistent rate of ignition: therefore more POWER. However this increased the internal pressure in the barrel, making the bombard construction woefully inadequate.

3. Re projectile size and weight. Because of the different ballistic profiles of bombards and later cannon, comparing bore diameter and weight of shot between the types is not all that meaningful. The reason that most large cannon made during the 16th cent. and later have smaller bores on average* than earlier bombards is that gunners realized, with the improved ammunition at their disposal (corned powder and precisely cast iron balls), that a shot traveling at greater speed packed more projectile energy and therefore more destructive force, not to mention being capable of greater range and accuracy (the latter due to a more consistent burning rate of granular powder).

* leaving mortars out of the discussion for now, since these specialized guns have a totally different role and function than the types of artillery we are considering here.

4. Performance of Jaivana: 22 miles is an impossibly long range. I recall from reading the text in Fernando's post that estimates vary considerably, but 3 miles is a more realistic figure. A lot of this depends on the quality of the powder used, and the elevation to which the tube could be raised. It is an axiom in ballistics that the maximum range that can be achieved by a gun, ceteris paribus, is at an elevation of 45 degrees, this principle proved by the Italian mathematician Tartaglia in the 15th cent. (he is said to have invented the gunner's quadrant which became essential in gunnery practice for the next 400 years). Do we have any idea of how the one test shot with Jaivana was conducted?

5. Fuel economy: 220 lb of powder to power an 11-in. diameter cannonball sounds like an awful lot. Would be interesting to compare this with the powder charges of the largest fortress guns of the 18th cent.; British and French gunnery manuals of the era would have this info. I'm wondering if for this firing, the earlier type of fine-consistency powder was used. For instance, bombards required a prodigious amount of gunpowder in order to function (the powder chambers of these cannons is a separate part of the bore so it's easy to estimate the volume of powder required) simply because the relative weakness of the explosive required it.

Now, for the gunners having to dunk themselves to avoid being toasted by the blast. I wonder where they were standing when Jaivana was touched off. I can imagine a frightful muzzle blast but who would stand near the front end of something like this? For a barrel that's 20 feet long, one would think that somewhere to the side and rear should be sufficient, and that ear protection would nonetheless be the order of the day.

fernando · 24th July 2019, 01:47 PM

I assume i was more bringing in the 'curiosity' of the notes as they were published out there, that not worried to ponder on the accuracy of their technical assumptions.
We all know that exorbitation is the middle name of story tellers.
I have made a timeline chart with a few of the examples in exhibition and described in A ARTILHARIA EM PORTUGAL (1982), written by General Manuel F. T. Barata, when of an event in the Oporto Military Museum where, among other details, that of the guns reach is rather more realistic.
It is undeniable that (mainly) the evolution of gunpowder, added to the elevation angle of the piece and other parallel technologies contributed for an exponential reach and impact of projectiles.

.

fernando · 24th July 2019, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... Now, for the gunners having to dunk themselves to avoid being toasted by the blast. I wonder where they were standing when Jaivana was touched off. I can imagine a frightful muzzle blast but who would stand near the front end of something like this? For a barrel that's 20 feet long, one would think that somewhere to the side and rear should be sufficient, and that ear protection would nonetheless be the order of the day...

I wouldn't know, without researching, how loud was primitive gunpowder explosion noise in comparison to that of nowadays. In an episode i made part when 'punishing' a determined spot somewhere in the bush, with a 8.8 (1983) howitzer, all the gunner used to get away from the noise was a rough string extension with less than 2 yards.

---
However looking further, in a little publication i have in the Artillery in North Africa during the XV-XVI centuries, one can read episodes like accidents occurred with gunpowder burning, poisoning caused by thick smoke coming out of collective cannon mouths in closed quarters like towers, and the damage caused by the high sonority level produced when of gunpowder ignition. In fact, the boom of artillery caused so much horror, that were men that became deaf and for many days will not hear any thing.
Damião de Gois
J. Manuel Cordeiro
D.Manuel de Menezes.

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2019, 09:14 PM

Philip, thank you so much for the further information on this topic! As I noted, while not a field of study I have much entertained over the years, this thread has 'sparked' a genuine interest and I am enjoying learning more.
I am hoping that readers here will also have their interests piqued if not already involved in the study of artillery.

Actually I do not have the reference on 'Mons Meg' that you mentioned, however I had noticed material on it over the years, one that comes to mind was in JAAS many years ago.
I did not bring Mons Meg into the discussion as any sort of competition or contesting comparison, but merely an example of another 'notably huge' cannon.

I am intrigued by some of the elements of the firing of such cannon, and hope I might pose some questions regarding things brought up here.

I had noted (from the reference I read) that the gunners sought refuge from the enormous heat generated by this huge amount of black powder ignited, either in or behind water containers. While obviously the amount of powder is a matter of debate, it certainly was considerable.
The flash and sparks would come out the end of the barrel, but how much heat would be released from the touch end of it as it seems the explosion would be contained?

Obviously the sound of the explosion from such a load of powder would be enormous, but from what I have understood, not nearly the report from more modern cannon, would that be correct?

There seems to be a great deal of attention to the quality of powder, and I recall in study on the Seige at the Alamo, one of the pressing issues was the poor quality of the Mexican black powder that had been captured (not to mention lack of men to properly man them).
Would the grade of powder have notable effect on the nature of the explosion as far as sound, heat etc.

I recall reading on the Alamo battle that the Mexicans with their poor powder had to load extra to gain sufficient charge, thus they had to hold their muskets at the hip to avoid the pan flash which would burn their faces.
If I understand correctly, the powder used in cannon is different than that used in firearms.
Could the nature of the powder used in these large cannon be pertinent to the results of firing we are considering?

Could the same have been the result in firing, and damaging, of Mons Meg?

I did notice that Mons Meg's barrel consisted on longitudinal staves (fascinating note on the term 'barrel'!!) which may have contributed to its failure. Some time ago I did some research work on the deck guns used on 17th c. vessels (in this case a pirate wreck) and found that a number of these breech block guns were indeed 'staved'. Interesting note, in references on Mons Meg it was termed 'murderer', and a particular type of these deck guns was also termed 'murderer'.
One wonders if perhaps the term deviously referred to the potential danger to those firing them.

Returning to the Jaigargh cannon, it does not seem surprising this huge cannon was fired only once. While it seemed an impressive and formidable weapon,it does not seem that viable as a siege weapon due to its size and lack of maneuverability despite the ingenious oxen power device.
It would be no problem to redirect an attack on the fortress from another direction before this could be moved.

Also, much as (again) what happened at the Alamo, cannon were less than effective at short or immediate range as a rule as those on parapets could not fore downward. Obviously at reasonable range, they could fire cannister or langrage into oncoming mass of attackers.
Such would not be the case with these massive cannon.

I hope my Alamo analogies do not too much detract as I am just using them in comparative analysis.

Philip · 24th July 2019, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't know, without researching, how loud was primitive gunpowder explosion noise in comparison to that of nowadays.

---
However looking further, in a little publication i have in the Artillery in North Africa during the XV-XVI centuries, one can read episodes like accidents occurred with gunpowder burning, poisoning caused by thick smoke coming out of collective cannon mouths in closed quarters like towers, and the damage caused by the high sonority level produced when of gunpowder ignition. In fact, the boom of artillery caused so much horror, that were men that became deaf and for many days will not hear any thing.
Damião de Gois
J. Manuel Cordeiro
D.Manuel de Menezes.

Yes, Nando, we can't travel through a time warp with decibel meters in order to find out

Seriously the points you raised were a considerable factor faced by commanders and soldiers until the end of the black powder era (1880s, orthereabouts, when "smokeless" powders first hit the market). Turkish chronicles describing preparations for the Ottoman siege of Constantinople (1453) mention that when a giant bombard made by the Hungarian renegade engineer Orban was tested in a nearby town, the noise caused women to miscarry from fright. The reason that armies wore bright colored uniforms and carried large regimental flags through much of the 19th cent. was so that troops and their leaders could distinguish friend from foe in the dense smoke generated by the volley fire of muskets, on top of the smoke of larger-bore weapons like cannon and the explosion of mortar shells.

20th July 2019, 03:07 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The Jaigarh Fort and its cannon ... A resume extracted from an article posted in "The Cellar" ... Jaigarh Fort is located on a hill called the Cheel Ka Teela, looking over the Amer Palace. It once held the treasures of the royal family of the Maharaja of Jaipur. It is the only fort in India that houses its own cannon factory. The art of cannon making was brought to India by the Mughals. The Maharaja of Jaipur, having collaborated with the Mughals, learned cannon making and built a cannon factory at Jaigarh. This factory has produced some massive cannons, of which the most famous one is Jaivana - the largest wheeled cannon in the world! Jaivana was cast and forged in 1720 in the Jaigarh fort itself. The barrel has floral design. An elephant rests on the tip of the barrel and a pair of peacocks are carved in the center. The two thick rings on the barrel were used for lifting it with the help of a crane which, though incomplete, is still lying in Jaigarh. A pair of ducks also decorates the rear of the barrel. The barrel of the cannon weighs 50 tonnes. The carriage weighs a lot more! It is said that it took four elephants to turn the cannon around.The length of the cannon barrel is 6.15 mts. The diameter of the bore of the barrel is 28 cm and the thickness of the barrel at the tip is 21.6 cm. Jaivan rests on a high two-wheeled carriage. The wheels are 1.37 m in diameter. The carriage is equipped with two removable additional wheels for transport. The removable wheels are 2.74 m in diameter. About 100 kg of gunpowder fired a shot ball weighing 50 kg. The Jaivana Cannon was only fired once by the Jai Singh II, as a test-fire in 1720. The most exaggerated myth claims that the weapon had a range of 40 km, other sources say it is 35, 22 and 11 km, although the exact range could perhaps never be determined. After studies on the period ballistics,the highest probably muzzle velocity would be around 1500 to 1700 feet/second. This would give a maximum ballistic range of around 5000 yards to 3 miles. Regarding this, i have a narration that an Indian cannon, way larger than this one, was dismantled in Goa by order of the Portuguese Vice-Roy in 1848, to be minted in bronze coins, which at the time were missing for chance money, thus over inflating the value silver coins. . Attached Images

23rd July 2019, 08:10 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	This is a fascinating post, and speaks well to the educational and research elements of these forums. While I admit to having little knowledge overall on artillery and ordnance, this huge cannon inspired me to learn more, not just on this amazing piece, but on others. Further encouraged by Philip's insight, I found what I could online and recalled some time ago, another huge cannon, Mons Meg in Edinburgh, which is apparently a 'bombard'. Mons Meg, which is 15ft. long and a 20" barrel, firing a 369 Lb. ball. Jaivana is 20.2" long and an 11" barrel firing a 11 pound ball. Focus on Jagargh Fort, which was apparently built overlooking Amber Fort and the palace to guard the royal family. It is on a promontory on the hill called Cheel ka Teela (as noted) and which means hill of eagles. Here in the Aravali range it seems there is an abundance of iron, clearly well providing for the casting of cannon, which they could cast in a day many of 16 ft. It is said that the firing of Jaivana cannon took 220 lbs of powder , which had the handling soldiers taking refuge in water barrels to prevent burns from the intense heat generated. While Mons Meg had huge caliber, the Jaivana had range of up to 22 miles if I have read correctly. Only fired once, as the Rajputs were allied with the Mughals in these times, it still represented a formidable threat to any attacking forces. The Mons Meg cannon apparently burst in 1680, rendering it effectively inert and I wonder if that was from the manner of construction which consisted of iron staves rather than solid cast iron. Thank you for this thread, and the opportunity to learn more on this dramatically large piece of artillery. Images of Jaigargh fort as seen from Amber Fort and looking down from it to Amber Fort. Bottom, Mons Meg at Edinburgh Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd July 2019 at 09:53 PM.

24th July 2019, 01:47 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I assume i was more bringing in the 'curiosity' of the notes as they were published out there, that not worried to ponder on the accuracy of their technical assumptions. We all know that exorbitation is the middle name of story tellers. I have made a timeline chart with a few of the examples in exhibition and described in A ARTILHARIA EM PORTUGAL (1982), written by General Manuel F. T. Barata, when of an event in the Oporto Military Museum where, among other details, that of the guns reach is rather more realistic. It is undeniable that (mainly) the evolution of gunpowder, added to the elevation angle of the piece and other parallel technologies contributed for an exponential reach and impact of projectiles. . Attached Images

21st July 2019, 12:01 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Thank you, Nando, for this contribution! A magnificent piece of artillery. I notice that for something from the first half of the 18th cent., its design is somewhat conservative, for the presence of the loose-rings in integral "eyes" cast integral with the tube, on its upper surface. These, for the purpose of lifting via a crane, in lieu of the so-called "dolphins" characteristic of Western guns from the 16th cent. until the end of the muzzle loading period, second half 19th. The system of rings, generally two sets of pairs, is characteristic of most cannons worldwide beginning in the age of bombards and lasting a century or so. There are early Portuguese guns in the Museu Militar de Lisboa which this design, and rather finely-cast at that which I'm sure you're familiar with. Considering the influence of the Portuguese in the development of firearms and gunnery in the East, it's not surprising to see the feature on Indian guns as well. Robert Elgood's Hindu Arms and Ritual p 50 illustrates a massive wrought iron tube preserved at Tanjore, fabricated in south India in the 16th cent., with the same system of lifting rings. The shape and construction of that gun is reminiscent of what was used during the siege of Constantinople in 1453. For something made in the 1600s its design is quite dated by Western standards although similar albeit smaller cannon were made and used in China, Korea, and Burma until even later.

23rd July 2019, 10:40 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, while you have certainly read such notes about the Jaivana, let me please recall the data presented in my first post and the following further details i originally omitted, in order not to be so boring; this will perhaps gives us a more balanced contest with the Mons Meg, often approached in previous discussions. Besides my impertinent correction, the data is now in Royal units, as metrics could create some confusion. The Jaivana barrel is 20.2 ft. long (not " ) and weighs 50 tonnes. The carriage weighs a lot more! It was rumored that it took four elephants to turn the cannon around. Its circumference at the tip measures 7.2 ft. Its caliber is indeed 11", but fires a 110 pound projectile, expelled by 220 lbs of powder. It rests on two wheels measuring in diameter 4.5 ft. Two removable wheels measuring 9.0 ft. are used for its transport. The Jaivana Cannon was only fired once by the Jai Singh II, as a test-fire in 1720. The most exaggerated myth claims that the weapon had a range of 40 km (25 mi), other sources say it is 35, 22 and 11 km (6.8 mi), although the exact range could perhaps never be determined without adequate scientific computation. And, in order to "defend my dame", i recall once more that a Portuguese Vice-Roy had one melted, twice its size, to mint bronze coins. This was the reason for RD having published (within his circle) the Jaivana article.

24th July 2019, 09:14 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Philip, thank you so much for the further information on this topic! As I noted, while not a field of study I have much entertained over the years, this thread has 'sparked' a genuine interest and I am enjoying learning more. I am hoping that readers here will also have their interests piqued if not already involved in the study of artillery. Actually I do not have the reference on 'Mons Meg' that you mentioned, however I had noticed material on it over the years, one that comes to mind was in JAAS many years ago. I did not bring Mons Meg into the discussion as any sort of competition or contesting comparison, but merely an example of another 'notably huge' cannon. I am intrigued by some of the elements of the firing of such cannon, and hope I might pose some questions regarding things brought up here. I had noted (from the reference I read) that the gunners sought refuge from the enormous heat generated by this huge amount of black powder ignited, either in or behind water containers. While obviously the amount of powder is a matter of debate, it certainly was considerable. The flash and sparks would come out the end of the barrel, but how much heat would be released from the touch end of it as it seems the explosion would be contained? Obviously the sound of the explosion from such a load of powder would be enormous, but from what I have understood, not nearly the report from more modern cannon, would that be correct? There seems to be a great deal of attention to the quality of powder, and I recall in study on the Seige at the Alamo, one of the pressing issues was the poor quality of the Mexican black powder that had been captured (not to mention lack of men to properly man them). Would the grade of powder have notable effect on the nature of the explosion as far as sound, heat etc. I recall reading on the Alamo battle that the Mexicans with their poor powder had to load extra to gain sufficient charge, thus they had to hold their muskets at the hip to avoid the pan flash which would burn their faces. If I understand correctly, the powder used in cannon is different than that used in firearms. Could the nature of the powder used in these large cannon be pertinent to the results of firing we are considering? Could the same have been the result in firing, and damaging, of Mons Meg? I did notice that Mons Meg's barrel consisted on longitudinal staves (fascinating note on the term 'barrel'!!) which may have contributed to its failure. Some time ago I did some research work on the deck guns used on 17th c. vessels (in this case a pirate wreck) and found that a number of these breech block guns were indeed 'staved'. Interesting note, in references on Mons Meg it was termed 'murderer', and a particular type of these deck guns was also termed 'murderer'. One wonders if perhaps the term deviously referred to the potential danger to those firing them. Returning to the Jaigargh cannon, it does not seem surprising this huge cannon was fired only once. While it seemed an impressive and formidable weapon,it does not seem that viable as a siege weapon due to its size and lack of maneuverability despite the ingenious oxen power device. It would be no problem to redirect an attack on the fortress from another direction before this could be moved. Also, much as (again) what happened at the Alamo, cannon were less than effective at short or immediate range as a rule as those on parapets could not fore downward. Obviously at reasonable range, they could fire cannister or langrage into oncoming mass of attackers. Such would not be the case with these massive cannon. I hope my Alamo analogies do not too much detract as I am just using them in comparative analysis.