Tombak Opinions Wanted

Nagawarrior · 10th May 2006, 01:36 AM

I recently acquired this nice Tombak from one of our esteemed fellow formites. I'm trying to learn as much about it as possible. I can really use your help.
I understand it is hard to give an evaluation using photographs.
First of all I realize it is "out of stain" and it exhibits characteristics that make it difficult to identify as a Javanese Tombak. (Thank you to Alan Maisey for that information). If anyone might have an opinion I would love to hear it.
Another question I need an answer to is; where can one find laboratory grade white arsenic (arsenic tri-oxide) ? Does anyone know the difference between a Tahitian lime and a regular lime. Both these are needed for proper staining according to Alan's detailed instructions.

Battara · 10th May 2006, 02:50 AM

On the ferrule, it looks like a postmark plane for airmail. Could the brass have come from some postal box?

doecon · 10th May 2006, 08:18 PM

Please dont play with arsenic yourself, just leave it to proffessionals. I'm sure there is some small businesses in your area that can do it for you. I clean a lot of blades, but the staining itself I leave to others. see link below for some of the better reasons

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a7512.htm

Rick · 10th May 2006, 09:26 PM

I'm betting that California is a tad shy on keris staining shops Doecon .

The Tombak looks pretty good as it is anyway IMO.

If it were mine I'd let sleeping dogs lie .

Does anyone feel like offering an opinion on the specific origin of this style Tombak ?

Nagawarrior · 11th May 2006, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

Please dont play with arsenic yourself, just leave it to proffessionals. I'm sure there is some small businesses in your area that can do it for you. I clean a lot of blades, but the staining itself I leave to others. see link below for some of the better reasons

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a7512.htm

I thank you for the warning Doecon. You are right, arsenic is highly poisenous. Probably the reason I can't find it any where. My wife already expressed concern. She thinks I have nefarious motives to get life insurance money to collect more swords

I think it looks pretty good as well Rick. I used the old Radio Shack etchant. I've tried all kinds of acids to try to get a good etch/pamor but none look like the arscenic method. I've been told this is the only way to really get the pamor stain right. I believe I could use the ascenic method safely and get good results. I haven't seen any Kriss stain shops in any of the malls in Southern California, your right about that. Sending it off to Alan is a bit cost prohibitive and the chance of the Tombak getting lost isn't worth it either.
Stephen*

nechesh · 11th May 2006, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

Please dont play with arsenic yourself, just leave it to proffessionals. I'm sure there is some small businesses in your area that can do it for you. I clean a lot of blades, but the staining itself I leave to others. see link below for some of the better reasons

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a7512.htm

I am afraid Rick has a point Doecon. Not many mom & pop shops doing traditional keris staining in my neck of the woods either. Also, some collectors like to take a hands-on DIY approach to their collections. I've been working with this process for a couple of years now. Common sense is, of course, a necessity in the handling of a substance like arsenic and your link is a valuable resource and much appreciated.

I also agree with Rick that this tombak isn't in too bad a shape. I would just keep it oiled for now.

doecon · 12th May 2006, 06:02 PM

Just curious;

aren't there services for staining iron at all? Some contracters who do protectionwork for your fence or interior? Probably they are using similar substances. Maybe iron staining is used in some other proffessions as well? Who knows if they can stain your fence, they might be able to do your Keris as well

(I havn't tried since I have found a pop & mom place next door).

For the sake of keeping your item in a good condition I would recommend to have it stained. (Keris) Oil can however already have a nice effect, since it normally brings a bit of extra contrast. But he, its your spear, please do with it what you want.

Regarding its origin I hardly dare to comment since Alan has given an opinion already

From the pictures included my uneducated guess it is central java made around 18th century. In case the ferule is not seperately forged, place and time might differ. (madura)

The little holes might have been drilled in later times for decorational purposes, I dont think they are part of the original design.

Rick · 12th May 2006, 06:12 PM

There's a staining shop in Florida ?!
Please tell me where .

Tim Simmons · 14th May 2006, 10:09 AM

Fascinating, can you etch with the more gentle fruit acids? I might be tempted to experiment on some tourist junk I have. Then who knows what next

I might even risk this as I got it very cheaply, if you could see it in the raw, you would see that the blade is full of pattern lines or what you call, pamor?

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2006, 11:27 AM

Let me differentiate between "etch", and "stain".

If we etch something, we bring up the topographic relief that is revealed when the acid eats away the softer metal.

If we stain, we apply a substance that will reveal the colours of the differing materials in a blade.

Before attempting to stain a blade we must clean it of rust and dirt. A gentle fruit acid such as pineapple juice is a very effective cleaner, and will also very lightly etch.

When we look at an old blade we can sometimes see lines in the blade that look as if they may be pamor, however, with many old blades we are not seeing pamor, we are simply seeing the weld joints caused by the folding process used in cleaning the material before it was forged into a blade. You can sometimes see these weld joints in old European pieces too.

Sometimes with an older piece of wesi aji, a soak in pineapple juice will not only clean the blade, but will also reactivate the latent arsenic from previous applications, and you can get a half-way acceptable blade finish by the use of the pineapple juice alone. You may find that this could be the case with the tombak you have shown.

Henk · 14th May 2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Fascinating, can you etch with the more gentle fruit acids? I might be tempted to experiment on some tourist junk I have. Then who knows what next

I might even risk this as I got it very cheaply, if you could see it in the raw, you would see that the blade is full of pattern lines or what you call, pamor?

Tim,

Looks to me as a nice tombak and certainly not a tourist piece. Does it have a scabbard?

Of course you can clean it with more gentle fruit acids. Pineapple juice and coconut milk are frequently used to clean the blade. The pattern lines you see are the lines from the forging of the metal. The pamor is the contrast of the nickle and the iron made visible by the warangan. It depends how the nickle is twisted with the iron and how many times, but you would be surprised of the pamor patern coming up after treatment with the warangan. That the blade is full of pattern lines indicates that your tombak has pamor.

Tim Simmons · 14th May 2006, 08:26 PM

This does have a scabbard with a thin slice of turtle on the outside. I have shown it in the past.

I have the tombak set up like this, in the opening of a pot. It has been like this for about 4 hours, I think something is happening I can smell it. Every now and again I move the blade in and out of the lemon to keep the juice wet. How long should I keep this up, days?

doecon · 14th May 2006, 09:52 PM

Mhwaauhaha, great experimental setup. I think you should leave it a couple of days

I bet you will see some nice shinny "white" blade...

nechesh · 14th May 2006, 10:38 PM

This seems like a somewhat awkward set up to me Tim. Is there some reason why you didn't just remove the hilt and immerse the blade totally in something like pineapple juice. I wouldn't think the citrus is all that helpful to the hilt anyway. With total immersion you wouldn't have to worry about moving the blade in and out all the time. The cleaning would be more even. I'm also not sure you will get a "white" blade this way. If your photos are any indication it looks like the citrus has re-activated some of the old warangan. At least it appears that the iron is darkening in some areas, especially around the edges and lightening where there may be pamor. But perhaps that is just a photographic illusion. If you plan on re-staining this one you might need to employ a bit of scrubbing to get this tombak "white". Of course, if you don't plan on restaining, the lemon treatment might just bring out the pamor to your satisfaction.

Either way, be sure to neutralize the citrus with something like a slurry of baking soda to stop the action of the etch.

Tim Simmons · 14th May 2006, 10:53 PM

I felt urged into this, it is a live experiment. The handle does not want come off and I am not going to pull it off. Now I have started I think I should go all the way, with guidance I hope

. I hope my pictures will be good enough.

I can already see that the blade is quite old and more pitted than I thought. The juice does seem to be reacting and making darker looking areas. If I wipe off the juice, it is at the moment a little more difficult to see the pamor/forging. However when I inspect the blade with a glass I think more interesting patterns are being revealed. I will carry on for a day or two, then come back with more pictures and attempt staining.

Tim Simmons · 18th May 2006, 01:07 PM

look at this now, hard to believe it is the same blade.
It has no patina

and although interesting rather harsh. I do not know how I feel about this

.
One side appears more patterned but this may change with staining. As it is now apart from the silver coloured patterns there seems three shades in the metal. I am glad this blade was no bigger, picking with a x10 loop and a dental probe is not the best way to pass time.
I am at you keris fans mercy where do I go from here? how long does the stain affect last?

Tim Simmons · 18th May 2006, 09:15 PM

Is that it then? Just oil it once in a while. I thought there was a special staining yet to do.

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2006, 11:52 PM

Henk, I apologise if this may seem to be a silly question, but do you think you could define for me exactly what you consider "pamor" to be?

Thank you.

Tim Simmons, you will find that gentle heat at the blade base , just in front of the metuk, will allow you free the handle. Use aluminium jaws, or wood blocks, in a vice, gently heat the blade base---you use a small kerosene lamp, or a candle, or if you have a delicate touch, a propane torch---twist and pull the handle, it will come free. To clean and stain this blade properly you must remove the handle. You cannot do the job properly with the handle still in place, and you will finish up damaging the handle.

Repeated application of the cleaning agent without soaking will clean a blade, but it will take a very, very long time to get an acceptable result.

Tim Simmons · 15th May 2006, 10:26 AM

This is the state of the blade right now. With a loop I can see there are still some lumps to come off.

The handle? On inspection this has been in place some time, there are signs of threads or cloth at the join. How much of a can of worms will taking the handle off be? how to put it back? with what?

Am I just telling myself there are patterns emerging in this blade? poor pictures but you people know more what you are looking at. Is it worth continuing or shall I stop now?

Henk · 15th May 2006, 08:11 PM

Tim,

If you continue to use lemon juice you can soak the blade in the juice and scrub the blade with the lemon a few times a day. Works excellent with keris to get them clean before the etching with warangan. I don't do it myself but I've seen how it is done.

A. G. Maisey,

At school where I work we use to say, you never can ask a silly question because questions are not silly, you only can get a silly answer.

Pamor is the contrast between the iron and the nickle after etching with the warangang. The black iron and the white lines of the nickle. The lines you see on the blade made by forging is not the pamor. As I wrote above, I saw how a keris was etched with warangan. When I looked at the blade I saw the lines of forging on the white blade, just the metal color as Tim's tombak. According to these lines I thought the pamor would be of an adeg type. I told that to the guy who did the etching and he replied "just watch and get surprised" When the warangan was brought up, the pamor raised and the iron colored black. Result: pamor beras wutah with those fanciful spots and circlelike lines. I couldn't discover a single adeg pamor line on the blade.

10th May 2006, 01:36 AM	#1
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Tombak Opinions Wanted I recently acquired this nice Tombak from one of our esteemed fellow formites. I'm trying to learn as much about it as possible. I can really use your help. I understand it is hard to give an evaluation using photographs. First of all I realize it is "out of stain" and it exhibits characteristics that make it difficult to identify as a Javanese Tombak. (Thank you to Alan Maisey for that information). If anyone might have an opinion I would love to hear it. Another question I need an answer to is; where can one find laboratory grade white arsenic (arsenic tri-oxide) ? Does anyone know the difference between a Tahitian lime and a regular lime. Both these are needed for proper staining according to Alan's detailed instructions.

14th May 2006, 10:09 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Fascinating, can you etch with the more gentle fruit acids? I might be tempted to experiment on some tourist junk I have. Then who knows what next I might even risk this as I got it very cheaply, if you could see it in the raw, you would see that the blade is full of pattern lines or what you call, pamor? Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 14th May 2006 at 10:21 AM.

14th May 2006, 08:26 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This does have a scabbard with a thin slice of turtle on the outside. I have shown it in the past. I have the tombak set up like this, in the opening of a pot. It has been like this for about 4 hours, I think something is happening I can smell it. Every now and again I move the blade in and out of the lemon to keep the juice wet. How long should I keep this up, days? Attached Images

18th May 2006, 01:07 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	look at this now, hard to believe it is the same blade. It has no patina and although interesting rather harsh. I do not know how I feel about this . One side appears more patterned but this may change with staining. As it is now apart from the silver coloured patterns there seems three shades in the metal. I am glad this blade was no bigger, picking with a x10 loop and a dental probe is not the best way to pass time. I am at you keris fans mercy where do I go from here? how long does the stain affect last? Attached Images

15th May 2006, 10:26 AM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This is the state of the blade right now. With a loop I can see there are still some lumps to come off. The handle? On inspection this has been in place some time, there are signs of threads or cloth at the join. How much of a can of worms will taking the handle off be? how to put it back? with what? Am I just telling myself there are patterns emerging in this blade? poor pictures but you people know more what you are looking at. Is it worth continuing or shall I stop now? Attached Images

10th May 2006, 02:50 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	On the ferrule, it looks like a postmark plane for airmail. Could the brass have come from some postal box?

10th May 2006, 08:18 PM	#3
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Please dont play with arsenic yourself, just leave it to proffessionals. I'm sure there is some small businesses in your area that can do it for you. I clean a lot of blades, but the staining itself I leave to others. see link below for some of the better reasons http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a7512.htm

10th May 2006, 09:26 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'm betting that California is a tad shy on keris staining shops Doecon . The Tombak looks pretty good as it is anyway IMO. If it were mine I'd let sleeping dogs lie . Does anyone feel like offering an opinion on the specific origin of this style Tombak ?

12th May 2006, 06:02 PM	#7
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Just curious; aren't there services for staining iron at all? Some contracters who do protectionwork for your fence or interior? Probably they are using similar substances. Maybe iron staining is used in some other proffessions as well? Who knows if they can stain your fence, they might be able to do your Keris as well (I havn't tried since I have found a pop & mom place next door). For the sake of keeping your item in a good condition I would recommend to have it stained. (Keris) Oil can however already have a nice effect, since it normally brings a bit of extra contrast. But he, its your spear, please do with it what you want. Regarding its origin I hardly dare to comment since Alan has given an opinion already From the pictures included my uneducated guess it is central java made around 18th century. In case the ferule is not seperately forged, place and time might differ. (madura) The little holes might have been drilled in later times for decorational purposes, I dont think they are part of the original design.

12th May 2006, 06:12 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	There's a staining shop in Florida ?! Please tell me where .

14th May 2006, 11:27 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Let me differentiate between "etch", and "stain". If we etch something, we bring up the topographic relief that is revealed when the acid eats away the softer metal. If we stain, we apply a substance that will reveal the colours of the differing materials in a blade. Before attempting to stain a blade we must clean it of rust and dirt. A gentle fruit acid such as pineapple juice is a very effective cleaner, and will also very lightly etch. When we look at an old blade we can sometimes see lines in the blade that look as if they may be pamor, however, with many old blades we are not seeing pamor, we are simply seeing the weld joints caused by the folding process used in cleaning the material before it was forged into a blade. You can sometimes see these weld joints in old European pieces too. Sometimes with an older piece of wesi aji, a soak in pineapple juice will not only clean the blade, but will also reactivate the latent arsenic from previous applications, and you can get a half-way acceptable blade finish by the use of the pineapple juice alone. You may find that this could be the case with the tombak you have shown.

14th May 2006, 09:52 PM	#13
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Mhwaauhaha, great experimental setup. I think you should leave it a couple of days I bet you will see some nice shinny "white" blade...

14th May 2006, 10:38 PM	#14
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	This seems like a somewhat awkward set up to me Tim. Is there some reason why you didn't just remove the hilt and immerse the blade totally in something like pineapple juice. I wouldn't think the citrus is all that helpful to the hilt anyway. With total immersion you wouldn't have to worry about moving the blade in and out all the time. The cleaning would be more even. I'm also not sure you will get a "white" blade this way. If your photos are any indication it looks like the citrus has re-activated some of the old warangan. At least it appears that the iron is darkening in some areas, especially around the edges and lightening where there may be pamor. But perhaps that is just a photographic illusion. If you plan on re-staining this one you might need to employ a bit of scrubbing to get this tombak "white". Of course, if you don't plan on restaining, the lemon treatment might just bring out the pamor to your satisfaction. Either way, be sure to neutralize the citrus with something like a slurry of baking soda to stop the action of the etch.

14th May 2006, 10:53 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I felt urged into this, it is a live experiment. The handle does not want come off and I am not going to pull it off. Now I have started I think I should go all the way, with guidance I hope . I hope my pictures will be good enough. I can already see that the blade is quite old and more pitted than I thought. The juice does seem to be reacting and making darker looking areas. If I wipe off the juice, it is at the moment a little more difficult to see the pamor/forging. However when I inspect the blade with a glass I think more interesting patterns are being revealed. I will carry on for a day or two, then come back with more pictures and attempt staining.

18th May 2006, 09:15 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Is that it then? Just oil it once in a while. I thought there was a special staining yet to do.

14th May 2006, 11:52 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Henk, I apologise if this may seem to be a silly question, but do you think you could define for me exactly what you consider "pamor" to be? Thank you. Tim Simmons, you will find that gentle heat at the blade base , just in front of the metuk, will allow you free the handle. Use aluminium jaws, or wood blocks, in a vice, gently heat the blade base---you use a small kerosene lamp, or a candle, or if you have a delicate touch, a propane torch---twist and pull the handle, it will come free. To clean and stain this blade properly you must remove the handle. You cannot do the job properly with the handle still in place, and you will finish up damaging the handle. Repeated application of the cleaning agent without soaking will clean a blade, but it will take a very, very long time to get an acceptable result.

15th May 2006, 08:11 PM	#20
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, If you continue to use lemon juice you can soak the blade in the juice and scrub the blade with the lemon a few times a day. Works excellent with keris to get them clean before the etching with warangan. I don't do it myself but I've seen how it is done. A. G. Maisey, At school where I work we use to say, you never can ask a silly question because questions are not silly, you only can get a silly answer. Pamor is the contrast between the iron and the nickle after etching with the warangang. The black iron and the white lines of the nickle. The lines you see on the blade made by forging is not the pamor. As I wrote above, I saw how a keris was etched with warangan. When I looked at the blade I saw the lines of forging on the white blade, just the metal color as Tim's tombak. According to these lines I thought the pamor would be of an adeg type. I told that to the guy who did the etching and he replied "just watch and get surprised" When the warangan was brought up, the pamor raised and the iron colored black. Result: pamor beras wutah with those fanciful spots and circlelike lines. I couldn't discover a single adeg pamor line on the blade.