Early Spanish Musket for I.D.

rickystl · 4th October 2011, 04:11 PM

Hello all. Here is yet another item from a fellow collector. He believes this is a 1741 Spanish Dragoon Musket. It is iron mounted. He says the barrel was shorted slightly back in the period, and the front barrel band is missing.
I just don't have the reference material to positivly identify this musket. It certainly is a Spanish Dragoon. And, the furniture style seems to date it pre-American Revolution. Does anyone have any reference material on Spanish Military arms pre-1760? Sure would like to know what the front barrel band looked like? Thanks for any assistance. Rick.

fernando · 4th October 2011, 09:35 PM

This one resembles MODELO 1757, according to both B.Barceló Rubí and Juan Luis Calvó.
Differences noted are the mountings that, according to Rubi (for one) should be brass. Also the strap sling is on the stock and not in the trigger guard, like in the example posted.
The lock looks prity much the same ... to my eyes.
You may confront the measurements, calibres and weight in the attached page (ARMAMENTO PORTATIL ESPAÑOL BY B. Barceló Rubi).

-

Matchlock · 5th October 2011, 12:18 AM

Hi Rick and 'Nando,

It's interesting to notice the delays in sylistic development: in both French and German flintlocks, the lower concave line of the lock plate would be closely datable to 1720-30.

That's exactly why I hesitated to respond and wisely prefrerred waiting for 'Nando's expertise!

Best,
Michael

rickystl · 5th October 2011, 06:03 PM

Hello 'Nando and Michael!!!

'Nanado: Thanks so much for your reply. At first glance I too thought this was a 1752/57 Model, but with a "dragoon type" middle barrel band??
Good of you to notice the rear sling swivel being located on the triggerguard vs the butt stock like the 1757. I believe the first half of the 18th Century the Spanish closely followed the French design of firearms. And, that middle barrel band reminds me of a 1760's French Carbine. Even though the barrel band springs are missing, the owner says you can tell the barrel bands are original to the gun. He has promised to send me better pictures, especially of the entire gun. The one very interesting item is the iron vs brass mounts.
Maybe this was a transition piece? Since the lock is styled like the 1730-50 French lock, I do believe this is a pre-1750 piece.
Just today, I found a book for sale on Amazon which I purchased titled: Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America, 1700-1821. I should receive it in the next 10 days or less. Maybe this will shed some light?
Michael: By the way, I dis-assembled my Nurenburg Flask per your request and posted pictures under the "Powder Flask I.D.". Thank you both!! Rick.

fernando · 5th October 2011, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... That's exactly why I hesitated to respond and wisely prefrerred waiting for 'Nando's expertise!

...

Oh yeah, it takes a lot of expertise to consult the couple books i have on Spanish weapons

Fernando K · 5th October 2011, 11:31 PM

Hola:

Me parece que es un fusil francés, modelo l754. Los fusiles españoles nunca fueron fijados al cañón (barrel) por la "grenadiere" como en este modelo. Lástima que falta el "embouchoir" delantero. Además, el "punto" (lug) para la fijación de la bayoneta esta situado en la parte inferior del cañón, y no en la parte superior, como en los cañones españoles.

Según Ramiro Larrañaga "Sintesis histórica de la Armería Vasca" España adquirío armas francesas de Saint Etienne, especialmente para las colonias.

AHi

I think it is a French rifle, model L754. The Spanish guns were never attached to the barrel (barrel) for the "grenadiere" as in this model. Too bad it lacks the "embouchoir" forward. In addition, the "point" (lug) for fixing the bayonet is located at the bottom of the barrel, not the top, as in the Spanish guns.

According to Ramiro Larranaga "historical overview of the Armory Vasca" Spain acquired French arms of Saint Etienne, especially for the colonies.

Sincerely. Fernando K

Diccionariofectuosamente. Fernando K

fernando · 6th October 2011, 08:07 PM

I have no doubt that Fernando K has infinitely more knowledge about these weapons

.
But let me ask you something, Fernando K: the lock of this rifle is not French and looks quite similar to the Spanish fusil 1757, don't you agree?
Saludos del otro Fernando.

4th October 2011, 04:11 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Early Spanish Musket for I.D. Hello all. Here is yet another item from a fellow collector. He believes this is a 1741 Spanish Dragoon Musket. It is iron mounted. He says the barrel was shorted slightly back in the period, and the front barrel band is missing. I just don't have the reference material to positivly identify this musket. It certainly is a Spanish Dragoon. And, the furniture style seems to date it pre-American Revolution. Does anyone have any reference material on Spanish Military arms pre-1760? Sure would like to know what the front barrel band looked like? Thanks for any assistance. Rick. Attached Images

4th October 2011, 09:35 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This one resembles MODELO 1757, according to both B.Barceló Rubí and Juan Luis Calvó. Differences noted are the mountings that, according to Rubi (for one) should be brass. Also the strap sling is on the stock and not in the trigger guard, like in the example posted. The lock looks prity much the same ... to my eyes. You may confront the measurements, calibres and weight in the attached page (ARMAMENTO PORTATIL ESPAÑOL BY B. Barceló Rubi). - Attached Images

5th October 2011, 12:18 AM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick and 'Nando, It's interesting to notice the delays in sylistic development: in both French and German flintlocks, the lower concave line of the lock plate would be closely datable to 1720-30. That's exactly why I hesitated to respond and wisely prefrerred waiting for 'Nando's expertise! Best, Michael

5th October 2011, 06:03 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hello 'Nando and Michael!!! 'Nanado: Thanks so much for your reply. At first glance I too thought this was a 1752/57 Model, but with a "dragoon type" middle barrel band?? Good of you to notice the rear sling swivel being located on the triggerguard vs the butt stock like the 1757. I believe the first half of the 18th Century the Spanish closely followed the French design of firearms. And, that middle barrel band reminds me of a 1760's French Carbine. Even though the barrel band springs are missing, the owner says you can tell the barrel bands are original to the gun. He has promised to send me better pictures, especially of the entire gun. The one very interesting item is the iron vs brass mounts. Maybe this was a transition piece? Since the lock is styled like the 1730-50 French lock, I do believe this is a pre-1750 piece. Just today, I found a book for sale on Amazon which I purchased titled: Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America, 1700-1821. I should receive it in the next 10 days or less. Maybe this will shed some light? Michael: By the way, I dis-assembled my Nurenburg Flask per your request and posted pictures under the "Powder Flask I.D.". Thank you both!! Rick.

5th October 2011, 11:31 PM	#6
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola: Me parece que es un fusil francés, modelo l754. Los fusiles españoles nunca fueron fijados al cañón (barrel) por la "grenadiere" como en este modelo. Lástima que falta el "embouchoir" delantero. Además, el "punto" (lug) para la fijación de la bayoneta esta situado en la parte inferior del cañón, y no en la parte superior, como en los cañones españoles. Según Ramiro Larrañaga "Sintesis histórica de la Armería Vasca" España adquirío armas francesas de Saint Etienne, especialmente para las colonias. AHi I think it is a French rifle, model L754. The Spanish guns were never attached to the barrel (barrel) for the "grenadiere" as in this model. Too bad it lacks the "embouchoir" forward. In addition, the "point" (lug) for fixing the bayonet is located at the bottom of the barrel, not the top, as in the Spanish guns. According to Ramiro Larranaga "historical overview of the Armory Vasca" Spain acquired French arms of Saint Etienne, especially for the colonies. Sincerely. Fernando K Diccionariofectuosamente. Fernando K

6th October 2011, 08:07 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have no doubt that Fernando K has infinitely more knowledge about these weapons . But let me ask you something, Fernando K: the lock of this rifle is not French and looks quite similar to the Spanish fusil 1757, don't you agree? Saludos del otro Fernando.