Decoration on Indian blades

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2005, 10:40 PM

Decoration on blades have during time been very different, sometimes the decoration was ‘only’ the watering, sometimes it was inlays or maybe koftgari, but now and again it was something quite different – animals cut out of the steel, and inlaid in gold or other precious metals, and the artists were good - very good, they were masters.
Have a look at this.

tom hyle · 27th January 2005, 02:54 AM

wow! That's a tulwar?

Andrew · 27th January 2005, 05:18 AM

Oh, my. Those animals are carved into the blade.

Jens, will you post photos of the full sword, please? I'm eager to see more.

Thanks for sharing.

tom hyle · 27th January 2005, 01:14 PM

Interesting that both animals being attacked art domestic animals, bringing the hand or representation of man into the struggle. I don't think a leopard will really attack an elephant; it may be "same as a lion" (my favourite name, I think, for an animal; "what's that animal?" "It's equal to a lion." 'nuff said about it.) but I don't think a lion will do that either; I have heard that a tiger will upon ocassion, or lions in a gang....nice carving though, and there seems to be some evocation of the purpose/excuse for an heroic/armigerous class in the attack of domestic animals by wild ones.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th January 2005, 03:34 PM

I like the Indian blade with carvings, the animals are not made stiff, they are moving, and you can see it – true artists make carvings like this.
Most blades showing animals fighting or walking in procession are hunting swords, which of course does not mean, that they could not be used for other purposes. On both sides of the blade is an inscription, one in Farsi and the other one in an Indian dialect.
A strange thing is, that the hand guard can be screwed off, but it is clear that the screw thread is handmade. In Leo S.Figiel’ On Damascus Steel, pages 104-5, you can see a hilt very much alike, but whether this hand guard can be screwed off is not known, as he does not mention anything about it.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th January 2005, 03:41 PM

Here is the whole sword. The blade type is a Kirach. Total length 86 cm.

B.I · 30th January 2005, 10:10 PM

hi,
jens sword has all the remnants of a mid to late 19thC piece. the style of the hilt and the decoration seem to confirm this. during this period, the decorative arts of india progressed into an 'exhibition' standard. the great exhibition of 1851 kick started this, to be followed on by the parisian exhibition and the many durbars back in india. it was during this time, that the artists were brought forward and their art was recognised. they left their marks like the more traditional artist, even signing their work (in rare circumstance). its strange as before this period, it was the bladesmith that took all the glory.
i wonder if it was the british that could take the credit for this, recognising the pure artistry of the time. most tend to think of the british as the raj, and forget the legacy they left in people like hendley, watt and going back to william jones and the asiatic society. these outstanding individuals all became heavily involved in the local arts, and in many cases became patrons and promoted them amongst the locals, as well as their fellow countrymen back home.
the dehli exhibition of 1903 (catalogued by watt) is a good example of this, as it gave these artists from all over india a chance to come forth and take a bow.
i believe jens sword to be of this period, and one where the artist is showing off his art to a captive public.
only jens can decide whether the knuckle guard is en suite. the scroll design (where the quillions should be) seems complete and you would think that one side would 'reach out' to incorporate a knuckle guard. however, i would be inclined to assume it was of the same period and not later. if the colour of gold and style of decoration match, i would think it right. i wouldnt be detered by the screw thread. this did exist, expecially in pieces of this period. i have seen pommels unsrew and in one case, hold a maker signature under the pommel disc (hidden from view). other exampes of screw thread appear commonly on axes and on sword canes, crutches, combination weapons etc.
jeffs missing knuckle guard could be for different reasons, all speculative. i do know one thing, that the knuckle guard itself, being a 'thin' protrusion is prone to 'metal fatigue' when it has been bent, then straightened a few times. this seems to the most obvious reason for its disappearance, although intentional removal can also be an option.
also, i hope the desription of a similar hilt in the polish book doesnt lead any people astray. the book itself is notoriously mis-described and i done believe this to be persian for a second. i suppose, for once, the term 'indo-persian' can be justified as it is indeed indian with a persian influence.

Jeff D · 30th January 2005, 10:33 PM

Thanks B.I. for the reply. I think Dr. Zygulski may have been thrown off by the Assadulla cartouche and the shamshir style blade. My sword is more obviously a Indian tulwar with a riccasso even though mine has the Assadulla cartouche as well.
BTW what do you think the eyes were made of?

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 30th January 2005, 11:06 PM

B.I. very well described – thank you. Are you looking into the ‘eyes’, or should I do it?
I think you did a very fine, and interesting research, which all of us can learn from.
On this forum, it should not be so much guessing, as research and knowning.

Jens

B.I · 30th January 2005, 11:22 PM

hi jens/jeff,
i'm afraid the eyes are up to you guys

i've never had much interest in stones, prescious or otherwise. as my collective taste go early, rather than decorative, i rarely need to unearth any real information on this. i did have a deccani dagger with a stone hilt which was a nightmare to research. it seems that everyone is an expert and everyone disagrees. i think the closest i got was jasper, but i still wasnt convinced. i know the stone predated the 17thC (or sat comfortably within it)but the islamic 'experts' all had opinions that i could tear apart which but a few simple questions. its funny how people tend to fall apart when you hit them with a totally unreasonable and completely unexpected 'why?'
so i bow out gracefully. give me a piece of indian metal and i'll ramble on way past desertion (i am by own best audience) but jewellery is out of my sphere.

Jens Nordlunde · 31st January 2005, 11:22 AM

Well Jeff, I think B.I. has taken a step back, and left the scene to the experts – the two of us (lol).
I have mailed to a friend in Poland, to ask what kind of stones the eyes, on the sword shown in Persian Arms and Armour are made of. When I have an answer I will let you know.
Should I start guessing I would say, that you most probable can use any colour of stone, as stones on a hilt are likely to fall out, and would be replaced with what ever stone was at hand – I think.
Before I forget it, remember that the colours have a symbolic value and meaning - so maybe 'any colour' is not correct.

If you have a look at the picture, you will notice something strange about the ‘stones’. Some of them are ‘dead’ and some have a nice colour. These are not stones; these are glass/crystal, with coloured metal foil behind, which gives the colour. The fittings are lead with rests of gold foil. When the dagger was new, it must have looked very nice. Even when they used gemstones, they often used metal foil behind the stones to make the light reflect better if the hilt was Jade. Was the hilt gold or silver they made sure that the surface behind the stone was scratched, to get the same effect.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 01:35 PM

Here is the answer on Jeff's question about the eyes.
'The sword you are asking is in the collection of Malbork Caste. The hilt is of copper covered with gold. Indian origin. The eyes are of blue saffires, cabochon cut in the form of a small cone.'
Thank you to Mr. Lech Kobylinski for the answer.

B.I · 23rd February 2005, 03:00 PM

hi jens,
do you have direct contact with Lech Kobylinski?
i thought to track him down years ago concerning a reference he made to an obscure 16thC miniature, which he mentioned without the location or possible pulication. this would be very helpful for one line of my research if you did.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 04:21 PM

Brian, I have sent you a PM.

Jeff, notichat he writes about the cutting of the stones - it does not say me anything, maybe you know what kind of cutting it is.

Jeff D · 23rd February 2005, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jeff, notichat he writes about the cutting of the stones - it does not say me anything, maybe you know what kind of cutting it is.

Hi Jens,

Nope, it doesn't mean a thing to me but I am sure it makes sense to a jeweler.

Thanks again
Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 05:09 PM

Right Jeff, have a look at this.
What is a Cabochon Cut Stone?
They are the type of cut rounded on the top with flat bottom
Example: Star Ruby, Opal, Star Sapphire.

Otherwise try Google and write Cabochon - you will get about 274'000 pages, so I would try it over a week end

.

Be ware of the fitting.

Good luck

Jens

26th January 2005, 10:40 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Decoration on Indian blades Decoration on blades have during time been very different, sometimes the decoration was ‘only’ the watering, sometimes it was inlays or maybe koftgari, but now and again it was something quite different – animals cut out of the steel, and inlaid in gold or other precious metals, and the artists were good - very good, they were masters. Have a look at this. Attached Images

27th January 2005, 03:34 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I like the Indian blade with carvings, the animals are not made stiff, they are moving, and you can see it – true artists make carvings like this. Most blades showing animals fighting or walking in procession are hunting swords, which of course does not mean, that they could not be used for other purposes. On both sides of the blade is an inscription, one in Farsi and the other one in an Indian dialect. A strange thing is, that the hand guard can be screwed off, but it is clear that the screw thread is handmade. In Leo S.Figiel’ On Damascus Steel, pages 104-5, you can see a hilt very much alike, but whether this hand guard can be screwed off is not known, as he does not mention anything about it. Attached Images

27th January 2005, 03:41 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is the whole sword. The blade type is a Kirach. Total length 86 cm. Attached Images

31st January 2005, 11:22 AM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well Jeff, I think B.I. has taken a step back, and left the scene to the experts – the two of us (lol). I have mailed to a friend in Poland, to ask what kind of stones the eyes, on the sword shown in Persian Arms and Armour are made of. When I have an answer I will let you know. Should I start guessing I would say, that you most probable can use any colour of stone, as stones on a hilt are likely to fall out, and would be replaced with what ever stone was at hand – I think. Before I forget it, remember that the colours have a symbolic value and meaning - so maybe 'any colour' is not correct. If you have a look at the picture, you will notice something strange about the ‘stones’. Some of them are ‘dead’ and some have a nice colour. These are not stones; these are glass/crystal, with coloured metal foil behind, which gives the colour. The fittings are lead with rests of gold foil. When the dagger was new, it must have looked very nice. Even when they used gemstones, they often used metal foil behind the stones to make the light reflect better if the hilt was Jade. Was the hilt gold or silver they made sure that the surface behind the stone was scratched, to get the same effect. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 31st January 2005 at 11:52 AM.

27th January 2005, 02:54 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	wow! That's a tulwar?

27th January 2005, 05:18 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Oh, my. Those animals are carved into the blade. Jens, will you post photos of the full sword, please? I'm eager to see more. Thanks for sharing.

27th January 2005, 01:14 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Interesting that both animals being attacked art domestic animals, bringing the hand or representation of man into the struggle. I don't think a leopard will really attack an elephant; it may be "same as a lion" (my favourite name, I think, for an animal; "what's that animal?" "It's equal to a lion." 'nuff said about it.) but I don't think a lion will do that either; I have heard that a tiger will upon ocassion, or lions in a gang....nice carving though, and there seems to be some evocation of the purpose/excuse for an heroic/armigerous class in the attack of domestic animals by wild ones.

30th January 2005, 10:10 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, jens sword has all the remnants of a mid to late 19thC piece. the style of the hilt and the decoration seem to confirm this. during this period, the decorative arts of india progressed into an 'exhibition' standard. the great exhibition of 1851 kick started this, to be followed on by the parisian exhibition and the many durbars back in india. it was during this time, that the artists were brought forward and their art was recognised. they left their marks like the more traditional artist, even signing their work (in rare circumstance). its strange as before this period, it was the bladesmith that took all the glory. i wonder if it was the british that could take the credit for this, recognising the pure artistry of the time. most tend to think of the british as the raj, and forget the legacy they left in people like hendley, watt and going back to william jones and the asiatic society. these outstanding individuals all became heavily involved in the local arts, and in many cases became patrons and promoted them amongst the locals, as well as their fellow countrymen back home. the dehli exhibition of 1903 (catalogued by watt) is a good example of this, as it gave these artists from all over india a chance to come forth and take a bow. i believe jens sword to be of this period, and one where the artist is showing off his art to a captive public. only jens can decide whether the knuckle guard is en suite. the scroll design (where the quillions should be) seems complete and you would think that one side would 'reach out' to incorporate a knuckle guard. however, i would be inclined to assume it was of the same period and not later. if the colour of gold and style of decoration match, i would think it right. i wouldnt be detered by the screw thread. this did exist, expecially in pieces of this period. i have seen pommels unsrew and in one case, hold a maker signature under the pommel disc (hidden from view). other exampes of screw thread appear commonly on axes and on sword canes, crutches, combination weapons etc. jeffs missing knuckle guard could be for different reasons, all speculative. i do know one thing, that the knuckle guard itself, being a 'thin' protrusion is prone to 'metal fatigue' when it has been bent, then straightened a few times. this seems to the most obvious reason for its disappearance, although intentional removal can also be an option. also, i hope the desription of a similar hilt in the polish book doesnt lead any people astray. the book itself is notoriously mis-described and i done believe this to be persian for a second. i suppose, for once, the term 'indo-persian' can be justified as it is indeed indian with a persian influence.

30th January 2005, 10:33 PM	#8
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks B.I. for the reply. I think Dr. Zygulski may have been thrown off by the Assadulla cartouche and the shamshir style blade. My sword is more obviously a Indian tulwar with a riccasso even though mine has the Assadulla cartouche as well. BTW what do you think the eyes were made of? Jeff

30th January 2005, 11:06 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	B.I. very well described – thank you. Are you looking into the ‘eyes’, or should I do it? I think you did a very fine, and interesting research, which all of us can learn from. On this forum, it should not be so much guessing, as research and knowning. Jens

30th January 2005, 11:22 PM	#10
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jens/jeff, i'm afraid the eyes are up to you guys i've never had much interest in stones, prescious or otherwise. as my collective taste go early, rather than decorative, i rarely need to unearth any real information on this. i did have a deccani dagger with a stone hilt which was a nightmare to research. it seems that everyone is an expert and everyone disagrees. i think the closest i got was jasper, but i still wasnt convinced. i know the stone predated the 17thC (or sat comfortably within it)but the islamic 'experts' all had opinions that i could tear apart which but a few simple questions. its funny how people tend to fall apart when you hit them with a totally unreasonable and completely unexpected 'why?' so i bow out gracefully. give me a piece of indian metal and i'll ramble on way past desertion (i am by own best audience) but jewellery is out of my sphere.

23rd February 2005, 01:35 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is the answer on Jeff's question about the eyes. 'The sword you are asking is in the collection of Malbork Caste. The hilt is of copper covered with gold. Indian origin. The eyes are of blue saffires, cabochon cut in the form of a small cone.' Thank you to Mr. Lech Kobylinski for the answer.

23rd February 2005, 03:00 PM	#13
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jens, do you have direct contact with Lech Kobylinski? i thought to track him down years ago concerning a reference he made to an obscure 16thC miniature, which he mentioned without the location or possible pulication. this would be very helpful for one line of my research if you did.

23rd February 2005, 04:21 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Brian, I have sent you a PM. Jeff, notichat he writes about the cutting of the stones - it does not say me anything, maybe you know what kind of cutting it is.

23rd February 2005, 05:09 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Right Jeff, have a look at this. What is a Cabochon Cut Stone? They are the type of cut rounded on the top with flat bottom Example: Star Ruby, Opal, Star Sapphire. Otherwise try Google and write Cabochon - you will get about 274'000 pages, so I would try it over a week end . Be ware of the fitting. Good luck Jens