Bicol dagger for comment

[Sajen]

You know my interest in Bicolano blades, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bicol
So I was glad to add today a Bicol dagger (at least I think it is) to my collection. The dagger is 11,5 " long with a blade from 6 5/8". Sadly it's missing the scabbard.
Like usual all comments are welcome.

[Ian]

Hi Detlef:

Apart from the carved dog (arso ?) head on the hilt there is little else to suggest a Bicol origin to me. The blade actually looks of European or US manufacture rather than Philippines, and the hilt (apart from dog's head) does not remind me of other bicolano knives.

Your example does not seem like a typical itak from Bicol. Perhaps a composite from a number of unrelated pieces?

Ian

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Detlef:

Apart from the carved dog (arso ?) head on the hilt there is little else to suggest a Bicol origin to me. The blade actually looks of European or US manufacture rather than Philippines, and the hilt (apart from dog's head) does not remind me of other bicolano knives.

Your example does not seem like a typical itak from Bicol. Perhaps a composite from a number of unrelated pieces?

Ian

Hi Ian,

thank you for comment. I based my attribution by the inaso hilt from horn. But agree with you that the blade seems to be a recycled US blade. Also the unusual eyes from screws (?) of Western manufacture let me think that this dagger seems to date from 1900-1945, maybe WWII area? For sure you are correct that it is not a typical Bicol dagger (BTW, how look a typical Bicol dagger? ). But again, would like to see more Bicol blades, sadly there is not much written/documented about Bicol blades. Think about how long it was needed to pin down the origin of the so called Minasbad, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...batangas+sword

Regards,
Detlef

[colin henshaw]

The carved head is a bit like that to be found on some North West Coast USA/Canada daggers (Tlingit).

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

The carved head is a bit like that to be found on some North West Coast USA/Canada daggers (Tlingit).

Hello Colin,

are you able to show examples?

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

The carved head is a bit like that to be found on some North West Coast USA/Canada daggers (Tlingit).

Interesting idea Colin, though i believe stylistically the Tlingit pommels are carved a bit differently. The rest of the hilt doesn't really look Tlingit and you very rarely see a cross guard on such daggers, especially one like this. Sorry that these images are so small Detlef, but they are all i could find on line. I think these my more likely represent bear, than dog in the Tlingit culture, which genetically are really just much larger dogs (canines).

[colin henshaw]

A few more...

[Sajen]

Hello David and Colin,

indeed a very interesting resemblance! Thank you both for posting the pictures but agree with David that the hilt of the dagger in question is different and have a more Bicol appearance, see this picture taken from the thread given in post #1. Attached also the handles from my Bicol sinampalok and the dinahong-palay from Barry.

[Robert]

I have to agree with Detlef on this piece being from Bicol. Whether or not it was made for a serviceman or a local who either acquired an American made blade and had it fitted with a local hilt or just had a dagger made with this style of blade the piece as a whole I believe is from Bicol. There are many transitional edged weapons from the Philippines that do not follow the style of the more traditional pieces that everyone tries to reference back to when looking to identify them. Many Luzon pieces are a perfect example of this. Some of the daggers show so much Spanish influence in their overall appearance that they can be hard to distinguish from true Spanish pieces. Then add in the fact that the Philippine people of the time would often use items salvaged from different sources in producing edged weapons. I have a dagger where the ferules were made from Chinese thimbles and the blade was either made from a tri-cornered bayonet blade or just made to look like one. Another is a gunong with a blade shaped like one from a talibong. One more has a blade in the shape of a minisbad, but a clenched fist hilt and a blind tang. I do not believe Detlefs piece to be traditional one (other than the hilt), but more of a transitional or one off piece. One of the biggest problems is one that Detlef has tried to point out. What do the different types of traditional Bicol edged weapons look like, how many styles are there and where do you find references to them?

Best,
Robert

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Robert

I have to agree with Detlef on this piece being from Bicol...

One of the biggest problems is one that Detlef has tried to point out. What do the different types of traditional Bicol edged weapons look like, how many styles are there and where do you find references to them?

Best,
Robert

Robert:

Surely you are contradicting yourself here. If there is no reliable evidence as to what the different types of traditional Bicol edged weapons look like, and no known references to them, how can one be confident that this knife is indeed from Bicol?

I have gone back to the threads referenced by Detlef, and there really is no solid evidence for any of the swords that he shows being from Bicol. The terms minasbad, sinampalok, and dinahong-palay also appear to have no firm basis.

The absence of clear data is a persistent problem, but I think we need to be careful to avoid making assertions that are not based on solid documentation or reliable sources. Otherwise we add to the existing confusion.

Cheers,

Ian.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

I have gone back to the threads referenced by Detlef, and there really is no solid evidence for any of the swords that he shows being from Bicol.

Hi Ian,

may I ask you what you understand as "solid basis"? When you mean an old written book where are shown such swords I am sure that we never will get such a solid basis. It's simple nothing written about Bicol blades.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

The terms minasbad, sinampalok, and dinahong-palay also appear to have no firm basis.

Ian,

we have in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bicol some concurrent statements from Zel, Lorenz (The PepperSkull), Migueldiaz and Bankaya (all native Philippines) that the there shown blades are from Bicol and also conccurent statements about the names for this blades. But agree with the sentence Zel write me by mail " I wouldn't get too hung up with the exact name of the blade type." When we don't have old written documents we can take the words from "students" who have done some deep research IMHO. I think that the named persons are very reliable.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Excuse me that I will divagate short from the dagger in question.

My better half is a native Halmahera women (orang Halmahera) and I have visited Halmahera several times and married my wife there traditional. I have collected some swords on Halmahera. The name which was given me by concurrent statements from the natives is semarang. You will hardly find an other reliable solid basis for this name. Everybody can now decide byself if my word is a "reliable solid basis".

I think when we want to study ethnograhic weapons and can't find old written documents we need to believe credible statements from persons who have done some research.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

The terms minasbad, sinampalok, and dinahong-palay also appear to have no firm basis.

Hello Ian,

regarding the sword named minasbad, please have a look to this links:
1. http://baaohistoricalsociety.blogspo...tistry-in.html
2. http://www.fmapulse.com/content/fma-...marrones-bicol

Best regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Detlef, Thank you for posting these very informative links. I have been trying to locate them for the last 24 hours so I could do the same. I've got to change the way I file things away so I can actually find them when the need arises.

Best,
Robert

[colin henshaw]

The blade on Sajen's knife looks like it could be from a US/European fighting knife (see image), or a re-worked bayonet ??

Regards.

[Sajen]

Hi Ian,

first, congratulations that you have your working time behind you! I still have some years in front.
Agree with the most you have written. Hope that we in future get more informations about Bicol blades, it seems to be one of the most unknown areas by Philippine weapons.

I wish you and all others a prosperous and healthy New Year,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

The blade on Sajen's knife looks like it could be from a US/European fighting knife (see image), or a re-worked bayonet ??

Hello Colin,
this assumption seems to be a good one. The other alternative would be that a local blacksmith had copied such a blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Just looking through some older threads and came across post #5 by steeldust on this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15388

"These photos are of a Dahong Palay (rice leaf) from the town of Tabaco, in Bicol, Philippines. The blade is 17" and the "tabak" was made this year. The scabbard is tied with mono filament fishing line instead of cordage. Thickness of the spine at the handle is 4.5 mm. The short sword weighs 16 oz."

The pictures are here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=86499
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=86500

Without the clear attribution from steeldust, I would not have identified this as coming from Bicol. The knife itself looks all Tagalog to me. BTW, I think the classification of this knife as a dahong palay strays quite a long way from the literal meaning of the term, and again points to the frustration (and futility?) of trying to be precise with our terminology.

Ian.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Just looking through some older threads and came across post #5 by steeldust on this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15388[indent]"These photos are of a Dahong Palay (rice leaf) from the town of Tabaco, in Bicol, Philippines. The blade is 17" and the "tabak" was made this year. The scabbard is tied with mono filament fishing line instead of cordage. Thickness of the spine at the handle is 4.5 mm. The short sword weighs 16 oz."


Without the clear attribution from steeldust, I would not have identified this as coming from Bicol. The knife itself looks all Tagalog to me. BTW, I think the classification of this knife as a dahong palay strays quite a long way from the literal meaning of the term, and again points to the frustration (and futility?) of trying to be precise with our terminology.

Ian.

Agree, nothing would let me think that this blade coming from Bicol, the scabbard maybe a little bit. Vexing is also that steeldust used two different terms for one sword. Would be interesting if both terms was given to him from the seller. Here we have again the "name game". But it would be great already when we would be able to tell from where a blade has it's origin.

Regards,
Detlef