End of sword collecting in the UK

kronckew · 4th March 2008, 06:27 PM

The UK govt. in their wisdom has declared any curved sword over 50 cm. (19.675 in) is to be illegal after april 6th. exceptions are any sword made in japan before 1954 and any made in japan by traditional methods.

sale or importation is an offense.

so, the law which started off to ban cheap samurai swords will now ban any antique sabre such as a 1796 light cavalry sabre, dhas, darbs, tulwars, shamshirs, kilij etc... cheap samurai swords are OK as long as they are made in japan and 'by traditional methods' whatever they mean by that.

re-enactors and martial artists may be arrested but can defend themselves in court by proving they are legit & by paying a lawyer a fortune. no exemption for collectors.

as straight swords are not mentioned i guess they are not dangerous.

draft text of act: Linky to silly law

this is in response to the massive increase in cases of assault on MP's by samurai sword welding nutters. (at least a whopping 2 cases in the last 20 years) ( thinking out of the box, why not punish the nutter for misuse, rather than banning an inanimate object)

i guess straight swords will be next, then daggers, then normal knives then plastic ones, paper drawings, and thinking of them will follow in succession.

nanny state in action.

Gavin Nugent · 4th March 2008, 06:39 PM

Silly law it is, other than legal mumbo jumbo words, no other words of any sense have been displayed in coming to these conclusions. Very sad

I wonder what tomorrow will hold for collectors and historians of this great country.

Rick · 4th March 2008, 07:58 PM

Time to join the N.R.A.

So where does this leave the collections in private hands that are extant in the UK .
Will you be getting a knock on the door upon some midnight dreary ?

Or will it be an axe rather than a knock .

" Dont it always seem to go
That you dont know what you've got
Till its gone ......... "

Lew · 4th March 2008, 08:17 PM

Well if you want you can send all of those old swords to us collectors across the pond and we will hold on to them for you until you get this mess straightened out

I really feel that there will be an clause for collecting antique pieces added to the books when this is all done.

Lew

VANDOO · 4th March 2008, 11:54 PM

A TRUE SHAME

THE ENGLISH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SOME OF THE GREATEST COLLECTORS IN THE WORLD AND THE TRADITION OF BRINGING BACK THE SPOILS OF WAR OR ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS GOES BACK TO BEFORE WRITTEN HISTORY. MANY ITEMS INCLUDING WEAPONS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORN OUT OR THROWN AWAY IN TIME WERE PRESERVED BECAUSE A COLLECTOR TOOK THEM HOME AND TOOK CARE OF THEM. IF IT WERE NOT FOR COLLECTORS THERE WOULD PROBABLY BE NO EXAMPLES OF MANY DIFFERENT THINGS IN THE WORLD TODAY. MOST SCIENCE WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF COLLECTORS WHO WERE INTERESTED IN STUDYING VARIOUS ODD THINGS. THE APOTHEOCARY LIKE HIS PREDACESOR THE MEDICINE MAN/ SHAMAN, LIKED TO TRY TO FIND IF THERE WERE ANY MEDICAL PROPERTYS IN ODD OR UNUSUAL THINGS AND STARTED CABINETS OF NATURAL CURIOSITIES WHICH EVOLVED INTO TODAYS MEDICAL AND BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES AND MUSEUMS. THE ALCHEMISTS COLLECTING AND EXPERIMENTING WITH ODD THINGS BECAME CHEMISTRY. SO DOING AWAY WITH THESE COLLECTORS AND THINKERS WOULD HAVE SEVERLY IMPACTED TODAYS WORLD. WITHOUT A DESIRE TO GET OUT IN THE WORLD AND STUDY ITS MANY THINGS AND COLLECT THEM WHO IN FUTURE WILL BE INTERESTED IN BECOMING OUR NATURALISTS AND SCIENTISTS.

TODAY RADICAL ENVIROMENTALISTS DON'T WANT US TO COLLECT ANYTHING ,JUST STAY ON THE PATH DON'T TOUCH AND JUST TAKE PICTURES. DON'T HUNT, DON'T FISH,DON'T CUT DOWN TREES OR WEEDS, DON'T BUILD DAMS, NUCLEUR POWER STATIONS,REFINERYS OR HOUSES AND DON'T DRILL FOR OIL. I THINK OF IT AS A RETURN TO THE STONE AGE EXCEPT WE WON'T BE ABLE TO HUNT OR FISH OR GATHER. IT WOULD NO DOUBT HELP MOTHER EARTH BECAUSE THE HUMAN RACE WOULD SOON BE AS DEAD AS THE DODO BIRD. WHEN WE ALL GET AS DAFT AS SOME GROUPS ARE NOW PERHAPS IT WILL BE TIME FOR MANKIND TO GO THE WAY OF THE DODO AND PUT US OUT OF OUR MISERY.

WE ALSO SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY WEAPONS OF ANY TYPE AS IT MAKES US TOO HARD TO CONTROL BECAUSE WE MIGHT FIGHT BACK WHEN WE ARE DONE DIRTY AND ENSLAVED. IN A DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC THE PEOPLE OWN THE GOVERNMENT AND ULTIMETLY THEIR COUNTRY. IN SOCALISM AND COMMUNISM THE GOVERNMENT OWNS THE COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE LIFESTOCK. LIFESTOCK IS TAKEN CARE OF AS LONG AS IT SERVES THE FARMERS PURPOSE AND IS NOT TOO MUCH TROUBLE. EXCESS LIFESTOCK OR THOSE THAT CAUSE TROUBLE OR DON'T FATTEN UP GOOD ENOUGH ARE SOMETIMES SOLD TO OTHER FARMERS BUT USUALLY END UP AT THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE.

kronckew · 12th July 2008, 11:16 AM

just heard there is to be an amendment to the silliest part of the law, in that countries other than japan who make swords by 'traditional methods' are also to be exempted.

Law Linky

still written in the obscure ancient legalese dialect, but at least they are showing a bit of an 'oops, we screwed up' attitude.

katana · 12th July 2008, 01:57 PM

Unfortunately recent events in the UK may cause more 'knee jerk' legislation with knives and knife collecting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...rs-865254.html

Regards David

Lew · 12th July 2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Unfortunately recent events in the UK may cause more 'knee jerk' legislation with knives and knife collecting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...rs-865254.html

Regards David

David

It seems that this crimes are being committed with ordinary kitchen knives and by teenagers so hopefully your law makers will realize this and not get too crazy.

katana · 12th July 2008, 02:58 PM

Hi Lew,
Hopefully you are right.

There have been televised debates, recently, on the issues of knife and gun crime in Britain. A 'political' commitee were interviewing youth workers, people involved in 'community schemes' etc. to gain insight into what is happening 'in the street'. Fortunately the interviewees all had ideas based on common sense and their experiences. They collectively saw 'gang culture' (one of the main reasons for the increase in knife/gun crime) as the main factor, and that it was occuring due to 'Social issues'.... the root cause. There was no input that increased legislation would 'help' the situation.

Hopefully, 'the word on the street' is being listened to, by those that can do something about it.

Regards David

David · 12th July 2008, 04:15 PM

Well, they could ban ALL knives over there, but i'm sure it would not be too long before they would see the first in a series of "spork" killings.

spiral · 4th March 2008, 10:31 PM

Well, worst than I had imagined.

So Long kukris are from Aprill now Illegal to buy ,sell or transfer. No exclusian for Antiques or Religious reasons it seems.

Still legal to own if you already posses it.

50cm from top of handle could mean blade length or overal length, depending on what a judge decides first time someone is arrested with one.

If you live in "Blighty" "land of the free" & want a longish curved blade youve got 8 weeks to get it.

Wheres the vomit smiley?

Spiral

A. G. Maisey · 5th March 2008, 12:09 AM

Right now in the state of NSW, Australia, edged weapons collectors are waiting for the report and recommendations flowing from the review of the Prohibition of Weapons Act.

There will be restrictions on the ownership of swords , as yet we do not know how severe those restrictions will be.

In respect of the UK legislation:- I do not see the term "sword" in the definitions.

Exactly what is and is not a "sword" ?

Richard Burton was unable to define sword, I think from memory he finished up by saying something like :- "well, when you see one, you'll recognise it"

Lacking adequate definition of a "sword" this legislation is for practical purposes not able to be universally enforced. Yes, it will certainly apply to all those easily recognisable swords, but there are many other implements that could be considered to have the nature of a sword, and that could lead to a prosecution being launched. If the prosecution is unsuccessful , this will weaken the law.

From what I have just read in this legislation, it seems to be remarkably poorly drafted. I doubt that much thought went into this.

Consider this:- this legislation relies on a measurement taken from the handle.
If there is no handle, there can be no measurement taken, thus, demount the blade and you no longer have a sword.Perhaps sword collectors may have to consider their collecting in a different form. With many Asian weapons, this would present no problem at all.

dennee · 5th March 2008, 01:04 AM

The law appears to exempt "antiques," but antiques are defined as at least a century old, and I suppose that the burden of proof will fall to the owner, most weapons not being blessed with a date inscription or detailed provenance.

Sikh_soldier · 5th March 2008, 01:15 AM

typical Knee-jerk reaction.

Those intent on harming others and possibly themselves, will not be thinking 'oh no, The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons)(Amendment) Order 2008, means I mustn't'
This will not curb the alleged epidemic, but like speed cameras, fines for not wearing seatbelts, using a mobile phone etc, just create easy targets out of us law abiding citizens!

ps
Anyone extremely distressed over the new law, can contact me to sell me their valuable antique arms and armour at a greatly discounted price

Happy collecting 2008!
Best regards to all

Bali

Andrew · 5th March 2008, 03:06 AM

This very topic necessarily involves political discussion. However, let's stay on topic--which is infuriating enough--and otherwise avoid gratuitous political commentary.

4th March 2008, 06:27 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	End of sword collecting in the UK The UK govt. in their wisdom has declared any curved sword over 50 cm. (19.675 in) is to be illegal after april 6th. exceptions are any sword made in japan before 1954 and any made in japan by traditional methods. sale or importation is an offense. so, the law which started off to ban cheap samurai swords will now ban any antique sabre such as a 1796 light cavalry sabre, dhas, darbs, tulwars, shamshirs, kilij etc... cheap samurai swords are OK as long as they are made in japan and 'by traditional methods' whatever they mean by that. re-enactors and martial artists may be arrested but can defend themselves in court by proving they are legit & by paying a lawyer a fortune. no exemption for collectors. as straight swords are not mentioned i guess they are not dangerous. draft text of act: Linky to silly law this is in response to the massive increase in cases of assault on MP's by samurai sword welding nutters. (at least a whopping 2 cases in the last 20 years) ( thinking out of the box, why not punish the nutter for misuse, rather than banning an inanimate object) i guess straight swords will be next, then daggers, then normal knives then plastic ones, paper drawings, and thinking of them will follow in succession. nanny state in action. Last edited by Lee; 5th March 2008 at 01:38 PM.

4th March 2008, 06:39 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	You hit the nail on the head Silly law it is, other than legal mumbo jumbo words, no other words of any sense have been displayed in coming to these conclusions. Very sad I wonder what tomorrow will hold for collectors and historians of this great country.

5th March 2008, 12:09 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Right now in the state of NSW, Australia, edged weapons collectors are waiting for the report and recommendations flowing from the review of the Prohibition of Weapons Act. There will be restrictions on the ownership of swords , as yet we do not know how severe those restrictions will be. In respect of the UK legislation:- I do not see the term "sword" in the definitions. Exactly what is and is not a "sword" ? Richard Burton was unable to define sword, I think from memory he finished up by saying something like :- "well, when you see one, you'll recognise it" Lacking adequate definition of a "sword" this legislation is for practical purposes not able to be universally enforced. Yes, it will certainly apply to all those easily recognisable swords, but there are many other implements that could be considered to have the nature of a sword, and that could lead to a prosecution being launched. If the prosecution is unsuccessful , this will weaken the law. From what I have just read in this legislation, it seems to be remarkably poorly drafted. I doubt that much thought went into this. Consider this:- this legislation relies on a measurement taken from the handle. If there is no handle, there can be no measurement taken, thus, demount the blade and you no longer have a sword.Perhaps sword collectors may have to consider their collecting in a different form. With many Asian weapons, this would present no problem at all. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 5th March 2008 at 12:19 AM.

4th March 2008, 07:58 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Time to join the N.R.A. So where does this leave the collections in private hands that are extant in the UK . Will you be getting a knock on the door upon some midnight dreary ? Or will it be an axe rather than a knock . " Dont it always seem to go That you dont know what you've got Till its gone ......... "

4th March 2008, 08:17 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well if you want you can send all of those old swords to us collectors across the pond and we will hold on to them for you until you get this mess straightened out I really feel that there will be an clause for collecting antique pieces added to the books when this is all done. Lew

4th March 2008, 11:54 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A TRUE SHAME THE ENGLISH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SOME OF THE GREATEST COLLECTORS IN THE WORLD AND THE TRADITION OF BRINGING BACK THE SPOILS OF WAR OR ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS GOES BACK TO BEFORE WRITTEN HISTORY. MANY ITEMS INCLUDING WEAPONS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORN OUT OR THROWN AWAY IN TIME WERE PRESERVED BECAUSE A COLLECTOR TOOK THEM HOME AND TOOK CARE OF THEM. IF IT WERE NOT FOR COLLECTORS THERE WOULD PROBABLY BE NO EXAMPLES OF MANY DIFFERENT THINGS IN THE WORLD TODAY. MOST SCIENCE WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF COLLECTORS WHO WERE INTERESTED IN STUDYING VARIOUS ODD THINGS. THE APOTHEOCARY LIKE HIS PREDACESOR THE MEDICINE MAN/ SHAMAN, LIKED TO TRY TO FIND IF THERE WERE ANY MEDICAL PROPERTYS IN ODD OR UNUSUAL THINGS AND STARTED CABINETS OF NATURAL CURIOSITIES WHICH EVOLVED INTO TODAYS MEDICAL AND BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES AND MUSEUMS. THE ALCHEMISTS COLLECTING AND EXPERIMENTING WITH ODD THINGS BECAME CHEMISTRY. SO DOING AWAY WITH THESE COLLECTORS AND THINKERS WOULD HAVE SEVERLY IMPACTED TODAYS WORLD. WITHOUT A DESIRE TO GET OUT IN THE WORLD AND STUDY ITS MANY THINGS AND COLLECT THEM WHO IN FUTURE WILL BE INTERESTED IN BECOMING OUR NATURALISTS AND SCIENTISTS. TODAY RADICAL ENVIROMENTALISTS DON'T WANT US TO COLLECT ANYTHING ,JUST STAY ON THE PATH DON'T TOUCH AND JUST TAKE PICTURES. DON'T HUNT, DON'T FISH,DON'T CUT DOWN TREES OR WEEDS, DON'T BUILD DAMS, NUCLEUR POWER STATIONS,REFINERYS OR HOUSES AND DON'T DRILL FOR OIL. I THINK OF IT AS A RETURN TO THE STONE AGE EXCEPT WE WON'T BE ABLE TO HUNT OR FISH OR GATHER. IT WOULD NO DOUBT HELP MOTHER EARTH BECAUSE THE HUMAN RACE WOULD SOON BE AS DEAD AS THE DODO BIRD. WHEN WE ALL GET AS DAFT AS SOME GROUPS ARE NOW PERHAPS IT WILL BE TIME FOR MANKIND TO GO THE WAY OF THE DODO AND PUT US OUT OF OUR MISERY. WE ALSO SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY WEAPONS OF ANY TYPE AS IT MAKES US TOO HARD TO CONTROL BECAUSE WE MIGHT FIGHT BACK WHEN WE ARE DONE DIRTY AND ENSLAVED. IN A DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC THE PEOPLE OWN THE GOVERNMENT AND ULTIMETLY THEIR COUNTRY. IN SOCALISM AND COMMUNISM THE GOVERNMENT OWNS THE COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE LIFESTOCK. LIFESTOCK IS TAKEN CARE OF AS LONG AS IT SERVES THE FARMERS PURPOSE AND IS NOT TOO MUCH TROUBLE. EXCESS LIFESTOCK OR THOSE THAT CAUSE TROUBLE OR DON'T FATTEN UP GOOD ENOUGH ARE SOMETIMES SOLD TO OTHER FARMERS BUT USUALLY END UP AT THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE.

12th July 2008, 11:16 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	just heard there is to be an amendment to the silliest part of the law, in that countries other than japan who make swords by 'traditional methods' are also to be exempted. Law Linky still written in the obscure ancient legalese dialect, but at least they are showing a bit of an 'oops, we screwed up' attitude.

12th July 2008, 01:57 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Unfortunately recent events in the UK may cause more 'knee jerk' legislation with knives and knife collecting. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...rs-865254.html Regards David

12th July 2008, 02:58 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Lew, Hopefully you are right. There have been televised debates, recently, on the issues of knife and gun crime in Britain. A 'political' commitee were interviewing youth workers, people involved in 'community schemes' etc. to gain insight into what is happening 'in the street'. Fortunately the interviewees all had ideas based on common sense and their experiences. They collectively saw 'gang culture' (one of the main reasons for the increase in knife/gun crime) as the main factor, and that it was occuring due to 'Social issues'.... the root cause. There was no input that increased legislation would 'help' the situation. Hopefully, 'the word on the street' is being listened to, by those that can do something about it. Regards David

12th July 2008, 04:15 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Well, they could ban ALL knives over there, but i'm sure it would not be too long before they would see the first in a series of "spork" killings.

4th March 2008, 10:31 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Well, worst than I had imagined. So Long kukris are from Aprill now Illegal to buy ,sell or transfer. No exclusian for Antiques or Religious reasons it seems. Still legal to own if you already posses it. 50cm from top of handle could mean blade length or overal length, depending on what a judge decides first time someone is arrested with one. If you live in "Blighty" "land of the free" & want a longish curved blade youve got 8 weeks to get it. Wheres the vomit smiley? Spiral

5th March 2008, 01:04 AM	#13
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	The law appears to exempt "antiques," but antiques are defined as at least a century old, and I suppose that the burden of proof will fall to the owner, most weapons not being blessed with a date inscription or detailed provenance.

5th March 2008, 01:15 AM	#14
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	typical Knee-jerk reaction. Those intent on harming others and possibly themselves, will not be thinking 'oh no, The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons)(Amendment) Order 2008, means I mustn't' This will not curb the alleged epidemic, but like speed cameras, fines for not wearing seatbelts, using a mobile phone etc, just create easy targets out of us law abiding citizens! ps Anyone extremely distressed over the new law, can contact me to sell me their valuable antique arms and armour at a greatly discounted price Happy collecting 2008! Best regards to all Bali

5th March 2008, 03:06 AM	#15
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	This very topic necessarily involves political discussion. However, let's stay on topic--which is infuriating enough--and otherwise avoid gratuitous political commentary.