Barrel markings interpretation ?

Pukka Bundook · 26th March 2018, 03:27 PM

Good morning gentlemen,
I have a mystery on my hands; It is an early double -barreled flintlock sporting gun, barrels marked Luis Santos, Locks by Labarde, Paris, and apparently re-stocked in England in the early 19th century!

Under the breech it has these stampings , attached.
I can not figure out what this says or means. Maybe the "staine" is "spaine"?
But what the first part is I do not know. Looks a bit like "Lesson " in French! any help most appreciated!!

Richard.

fernando · 26th March 2018, 06:09 PM

Hi Richard,
Labarde ? certainly Laborde, instead

.
Those letterings under the barrel may (should) not be words; the upper set has too many consonants in a row... and not necessarily original to the barrel making.
You surely have a riddle there

.

fernando · 26th March 2018, 07:01 PM

On the other hand, the word "Leconois" exists in French; apparently an old surname !

DaleH · 26th March 2018, 07:52 PM

http://www.shotguns.se/html/spain.html

... but although Spanish proof marks go back to 1600s, I didn’t see anything ...

DaleH · 26th March 2018, 07:57 PM

If we determine that ‘leconois’ is lesson, could this be an apprentice’s final build for acceptance into the guild? That may be why those other marks are there, perhaps denoting it was built/proofed under the oversight of the Master?

However, those “,” marks might indeed be commas and recall that Europsnuses them as commas between numbers - so perhaps those final marks are the bore sizes?

Pukka Bundook · 26th March 2018, 08:12 PM

Dear Fernando,

Of course you are right. Laborde it is. Getting things wrong is the only way I get them at the moment!

Thank you for the old French Surname. This is a good start.

Much to puzzle over on this piece, but thank you for your help my friend.

Richard.

M ELEY · 27th March 2018, 12:33 AM

Welcome to the Forum, DaleH. Appreciate your input and theories on this intriguing piece!

Pukka Bundook · 27th March 2018, 05:53 AM

Gents, there is much to ponder over on this one.

Thanks for all the thoughts.
DaleH. Welcome, glad to see you can now post!

The marks on the barrel are those of Luis Santos, and whether they are correct or a bit later forgeries I do not know. Many Were forged with famous Spanish barrel -maker marks applied, and these were difficult to tell apart from the real ones even in the 18th century.
I did have a short thread about the Santos stamps some time ago, and they Do appear correct..
The problem with this is that Luis died in 1721, so if his work, they are Extremely early for a set of double barrels. I Think Keith Neal had seen some from 1723 or so, but these would have to be 1721.

The locks are by Laborde, (Thank you Fernando!) and Stockel has him working in Paris from 1745 to 17 60.
Then, we have later stocking up apparently in the UK, in the early 19th century, and have an Earl's coronet on the wrist.
So what do we have?
I will attach more photos tomorrow.

Thank you all for looking!

Richard.

26th March 2018, 03:27 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Barrel markings interpretation ? Good morning gentlemen, I have a mystery on my hands; It is an early double -barreled flintlock sporting gun, barrels marked Luis Santos, Locks by Labarde, Paris, and apparently re-stocked in England in the early 19th century! Under the breech it has these stampings , attached. I can not figure out what this says or means. Maybe the "staine" is "spaine"? But what the first part is I do not know. Looks a bit like "Lesson " in French! any help most appreciated!! Richard. Attached Images

26th March 2018, 06:09 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Richard, Labarde ? certainly Laborde, instead . Those letterings under the barrel may (should) not be words; the upper set has too many consonants in a row... and not necessarily original to the barrel making. You surely have a riddle there .

26th March 2018, 07:01 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	On the other hand, the word "Leconois" exists in French; apparently an old surname !

26th March 2018, 07:52 PM	#4
DaleH Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: near Boston - USA Posts: 11	http://www.shotguns.se/html/spain.html ... but although Spanish proof marks go back to 1600s, I didn’t see anything ...

26th March 2018, 07:57 PM	#5
DaleH Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: near Boston - USA Posts: 11	If we determine that ‘leconois’ is lesson, could this be an apprentice’s final build for acceptance into the guild? That may be why those other marks are there, perhaps denoting it was built/proofed under the oversight of the Master? However, those “,” marks might indeed be commas and recall that Europsnuses them as commas between numbers - so perhaps those final marks are the bore sizes?

26th March 2018, 08:12 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Fernando, Of course you are right. Laborde it is. Getting things wrong is the only way I get them at the moment! Thank you for the old French Surname. This is a good start. Much to puzzle over on this piece, but thank you for your help my friend. Richard.

27th March 2018, 12:33 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,099	Welcome to the Forum, DaleH. Appreciate your input and theories on this intriguing piece!

27th March 2018, 05:53 AM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Gents, there is much to ponder over on this one. Thanks for all the thoughts. DaleH. Welcome, glad to see you can now post! The marks on the barrel are those of Luis Santos, and whether they are correct or a bit later forgeries I do not know. Many Were forged with famous Spanish barrel -maker marks applied, and these were difficult to tell apart from the real ones even in the 18th century. I did have a short thread about the Santos stamps some time ago, and they Do appear correct.. The problem with this is that Luis died in 1721, so if his work, they are Extremely early for a set of double barrels. I Think Keith Neal had seen some from 1723 or so, but these would have to be 1721. The locks are by Laborde, (Thank you Fernando!) and Stockel has him working in Paris from 1745 to 17 60. Then, we have later stocking up apparently in the UK, in the early 19th century, and have an Earl's coronet on the wrist. So what do we have? I will attach more photos tomorrow. Thank you all for looking! Richard.