SOLO KRATON KERIS AUCTIONED / GIFT FROM JAVANESE ROYALS TO DUTCH BANKER

asomotif · 6th August 2016, 09:59 PM

Good evening,

This keris was auctioned last month.
It was offered as a mid 19th century kraton keris that was a gift from a javanese royal family to a dutch banker.
His name is engraved in the selut and the weapon of the royal family is on the back of the pendok.

How realistic is this ?

Best regards,
Willem

mariusgmioc · 6th August 2016, 11:19 PM

It looks like there is a mismatch between the kris and the scabbard...

I don't think it is new... but 19th century?! I doubt.

Battara · 7th August 2016, 02:43 AM

I maybe wrong, but it doesn't look royal to me.

Jean · 7th August 2016, 08:51 AM

May be the Dutch banker was an usurer or a crook?

The name seems to be written on the mendak and the selut is recent and of poor quality.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th August 2016, 12:39 PM

Good story.

In respect of "Royal" keris.

During the 1980's I saw and handled a number of keris that were indisputably "Royal" keris. They were held in the store rooms of the Surakarta Kraton and were keris that had been gifted to kraton officials, and to previous Susuhunans, and keris that had been made on order from the Kraton. In most cases these were very ordinary keris.

A Javanese "Royal" keris does not need to be super great to be legitimate.

This keris shown may well have spent time in a Kraton storeroom.

However, the dress is very, very pedestrian quality and the keris itself is poorly matched to the dress.

Again, this poor presentation is not at all unusual for something coming from the Surakarta Kraton. There are more than a few examples of very, very ordinary keris floating around, some of which are very famous ( and have been for a long time), are in museums, or during the 20th century were given to visiting heads of state and politicians.

I was once offered a keris that had been presented to a former Australian Prime Minister, not by a kraton, but by (I guess) a representative of the Indonesian Government. It was one notch above rubbish. Probably a good indication of how much respect that particular Aussie PM got from Jakarta.

Just because a keris has been presented to somebody, by somebody, it does not mean that its value is any more than the sum value of its individual parts.

Jean · 7th August 2016, 01:24 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for the interesting story & analysis, I agree that the blade is quite good but do you think that the ganja wulung is original or not? (difficult to assess from a picture of course).
Regards

asomotif · 11th August 2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Good evening,

This keris was auctioned last month.
It was offered as a mid 19th century kraton keris that was a gift from a javanese royal family to a dutch banker.
His name is engraved in the selut and the weapon of the royal family is on the back of the pendok.

How realistic is this ?

Best regards,
Willem

Sorry, maybe I brought up something that is not about keris but more about the hocus pocus around a keris.

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2016, 11:11 PM

When almost anything is misunderstood, people seem to conjure explanations from their own misunderstanding.

A good example of this, and one that is very easy to understand is the manifestation of the Melanesian Cargo Cult that occurred after WWII. There is a lot of information on Cargo Cults on the net and in the literature. Here is a link to a clear, concise summary:-

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cargocult.htm

The keris, most especially the Javanese keris is a multi facetted object. This is perfectly in harmony with the nature of the culture which gave it birth, the culture of Jawa, that has a system of values and symbolism that in themselves are multi-facetted.

Because of this there are many aspects of the keris that are not understood, and many more aspects that were understood by some people at some time, but have now been forgotten.

We, as people who have an interest in the keris have choices to make:-

we can simply accumulate collections of the physical object and immerse ourselves in trying to understand the physical manifestation of skill and artistry that has gone into the production of that object.

or

we can make an attempt to try to understand the forces that prompted a culture to create this object, the Keris, and then to develop it into a socio-cultural icon that has lasted for better than 1000 years.

I am not suggesting that one of these choices is more worthy than the other:- each of us will instinctively follow the path that is most appealing to himself.

However, for those who may wish to stray beyond the bounds of the purely physical, here would be a good place to start:-

Sumukti Sumastuti , "Gunungan, The Javanese Cosmic Mountain", A dissertation submitted to the
Graduate Division of the University of Hawaii in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, December 1997.

This used to be available on-line, I have been unable to locate a current address. I do have a pdf of it, which I am willing to share.

Rick · 11th August 2016, 11:35 PM

I think it might be very helpful.

Someone once referred to keris study as 'a pretty deep rabbit hole'.

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2016, 11:58 PM

Rick, I cannot publish the contents of the pdf here, it is a restricted publication with the rights to publication reserved by the author --- and maybe by the University of Hawaii too.

However, I will send a copy to anybody who wishes to contact me.

Seerp Visser · 12th August 2016, 06:17 PM

We as people from this era with the whole world around us where we can get information about everything by our computers, we do not need a god anymore to believe in a mystic power of material things.

However when i handle my keris and when i work on them, i always try to follow the habits and guidelines given by the people who used to do so.
It helps me concentrate, and what is more important to me, it is the only way i still can show my deep respect for the men making such difficult to make and beautiful pieces of art.

David · 12th August 2016, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seerp Visser

We as people from this era with the whole world around us where we can get information about everything by our computers, we do not need a god anymore to believe in a mystic power of material things.

However when i handle my keris and when i work on them, i always try to follow the habits and guidelines given by the people who used to do so.
It helps me concentrate, and what is more important to me, it is the only way i still can show my deep respect for the men making such difficult to make and beautiful pieces of art.

Seerp, i'm not sure that anyone here is actually dismissing the spiritual/mystical/magickal aspects of the keris. The question has been raised about the practice of standing keris on end and whether that is a sign of a well forged blade. Also many people in recent years have made claims that balancing keris has something to do with mystical/magickal powers. In reality it is just basic science.
I might be way off base here and if so perhaps someone in the know can advise differently, but it seems that this penchant for balancing keris is a fairly recent phenomenon in certain places in Indonesia. I am not at all convinced that this is a practice that comes from any long-held tradition and have wondered if old school keris aficionados might not look at the practice as being somewhat disrespectful to the spirit of the keris, making them do tricks for public attention like this. I could be wrong of course. Maybe this is a long-held spiritual belief that i am simply unaware of.

A. G. Maisey · 13th August 2016, 12:12 AM

A personal keris is representative of its custodian. Such a keris is not displayed publicly. It is not removed from its wrongko to satisfy the curiosity of others.

A family keris (pusaka) is representative of its previous custodians and of the extended family, both past and present. Such a keris is a family heirloom and is kept within the family.

The profane keris in its role as a curiosity, a collectable, a store of wealth, an art work is in spite of its profane nature still symbolic of the Gunungan, which is linked to ancestor worship and the Gods.

Is it fitting to perform parlour tricks with such a powerful cultural symbol?

The major problem here is that we have several generations of people living in keris bearing cultures who have become disconnected from the traditional values and knowledge of their own cultures.

They know not what they do.

It is simply not possible to understand anything about the keris unless one has an understanding of the culture and society first.

Regrettably many people living in societies across the world have lost touch with their ancestors.

6th August 2016, 09:59 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	SOLO KRATON KERIS AUCTIONED / GIFT FROM JAVANESE ROYALS TO DUTCH BANKER Good evening, This keris was auctioned last month. It was offered as a mid 19th century kraton keris that was a gift from a javanese royal family to a dutch banker. His name is engraved in the selut and the weapon of the royal family is on the back of the pendok. How realistic is this ? Best regards, Willem Attached Images

6th August 2016, 11:19 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	It looks like there is a mismatch between the kris and the scabbard... I don't think it is new... but 19th century?! I doubt. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 6th August 2016 at 11:39 PM.

7th August 2016, 08:51 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	May be the Dutch banker was an usurer or a crook? The name seems to be written on the mendak and the selut is recent and of poor quality. Regards Last edited by Jean; 7th August 2016 at 09:22 AM.

7th August 2016, 02:43 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	I maybe wrong, but it doesn't look royal to me.

7th August 2016, 12:39 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	Good story. In respect of "Royal" keris. During the 1980's I saw and handled a number of keris that were indisputably "Royal" keris. They were held in the store rooms of the Surakarta Kraton and were keris that had been gifted to kraton officials, and to previous Susuhunans, and keris that had been made on order from the Kraton. In most cases these were very ordinary keris. A Javanese "Royal" keris does not need to be super great to be legitimate. This keris shown may well have spent time in a Kraton storeroom. However, the dress is very, very pedestrian quality and the keris itself is poorly matched to the dress. Again, this poor presentation is not at all unusual for something coming from the Surakarta Kraton. There are more than a few examples of very, very ordinary keris floating around, some of which are very famous ( and have been for a long time), are in museums, or during the 20th century were given to visiting heads of state and politicians. I was once offered a keris that had been presented to a former Australian Prime Minister, not by a kraton, but by (I guess) a representative of the Indonesian Government. It was one notch above rubbish. Probably a good indication of how much respect that particular Aussie PM got from Jakarta. Just because a keris has been presented to somebody, by somebody, it does not mean that its value is any more than the sum value of its individual parts.

7th August 2016, 01:24 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for the interesting story & analysis, I agree that the blade is quite good but do you think that the ganja wulung is original or not? (difficult to assess from a picture of course). Regards

11th August 2016, 11:11 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	When almost anything is misunderstood, people seem to conjure explanations from their own misunderstanding. A good example of this, and one that is very easy to understand is the manifestation of the Melanesian Cargo Cult that occurred after WWII. There is a lot of information on Cargo Cults on the net and in the literature. Here is a link to a clear, concise summary:- http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cargocult.htm The keris, most especially the Javanese keris is a multi facetted object. This is perfectly in harmony with the nature of the culture which gave it birth, the culture of Jawa, that has a system of values and symbolism that in themselves are multi-facetted. Because of this there are many aspects of the keris that are not understood, and many more aspects that were understood by some people at some time, but have now been forgotten. We, as people who have an interest in the keris have choices to make:- we can simply accumulate collections of the physical object and immerse ourselves in trying to understand the physical manifestation of skill and artistry that has gone into the production of that object. or we can make an attempt to try to understand the forces that prompted a culture to create this object, the Keris, and then to develop it into a socio-cultural icon that has lasted for better than 1000 years. I am not suggesting that one of these choices is more worthy than the other:- each of us will instinctively follow the path that is most appealing to himself. However, for those who may wish to stray beyond the bounds of the purely physical, here would be a good place to start:- Sumukti Sumastuti , "Gunungan, The Javanese Cosmic Mountain", A dissertation submitted to the Graduate Division of the University of Hawaii in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, December 1997. This used to be available on-line, I have been unable to locate a current address. I do have a pdf of it, which I am willing to share.

11th August 2016, 11:35 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	I think it might be very helpful. Someone once referred to keris study as 'a pretty deep rabbit hole'.

11th August 2016, 11:58 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	Rick, I cannot publish the contents of the pdf here, it is a restricted publication with the rights to publication reserved by the author --- and maybe by the University of Hawaii too. However, I will send a copy to anybody who wishes to contact me.

12th August 2016, 06:17 PM	#11
Seerp Visser Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	We as people from this era with the whole world around us where we can get information about everything by our computers, we do not need a god anymore to believe in a mystic power of material things. However when i handle my keris and when i work on them, i always try to follow the habits and guidelines given by the people who used to do so. It helps me concentrate, and what is more important to me, it is the only way i still can show my deep respect for the men making such difficult to make and beautiful pieces of art.

13th August 2016, 12:12 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	A personal keris is representative of its custodian. Such a keris is not displayed publicly. It is not removed from its wrongko to satisfy the curiosity of others. A family keris (pusaka) is representative of its previous custodians and of the extended family, both past and present. Such a keris is a family heirloom and is kept within the family. The profane keris in its role as a curiosity, a collectable, a store of wealth, an art work is in spite of its profane nature still symbolic of the Gunungan, which is linked to ancestor worship and the Gods. Is it fitting to perform parlour tricks with such a powerful cultural symbol? The major problem here is that we have several generations of people living in keris bearing cultures who have become disconnected from the traditional values and knowledge of their own cultures. They know not what they do. It is simply not possible to understand anything about the keris unless one has an understanding of the culture and society first. Regrettably many people living in societies across the world have lost touch with their ancestors.