Pajajaran era keris - 12th-13th century?

Ganapati · 28th July 2021, 10:03 PM

Hi sorry for not posting better pics, they will be forthcoming. I purchased this Keris and was curious about if this was from the Pajajaran era - 12th century. The hilt and sheath are obviously newer. I'm a beginner but passionate collector. Please advise.

I will post better pictures when I have the keris in hand next week.

JustYS · 30th July 2021, 06:05 AM

Hi Ganapati,

I'm a beginner myself so I won't be able to answer your question whether this Keris can be classified Tangguh Pajajaran or not.

However, I would like to point out that the definition of Tangguh itself is not unique.

For some experts Keris Tangguh Pajajaran can only means one thing: Keris made during Pajajaran period.

For others Keris Tangguh Pajajaran can also means Keris made according to the style/type of Keris made during Pajajaran period (but can be recently made).

Cheers,

Ganapati · 30th July 2021, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustYS

Hi Ganapati,

I'm a beginner myself so I won't be able to answer your question whether this Keris can be classified Tangguh Pajajaran or not.

However, I would like to point out that the definition of Tangguh itself is not unique.

For some experts Keris Tangguh Pajajaran can only means one thing: Keris made during Pajajaran period.

For others Keris Tangguh Pajajaran can also means Keris made according to the style/type of Keris made during Pajajaran period (but can be recently made).

Cheers,

very informative, thank you

Anthony G. · 30th July 2021, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustYS

Hi Ganapati,

I'm a beginner myself so I won't be able to answer your question whether this Keris can be classified Tangguh Pajajaran or not.

However, I would like to point out that the definition of Tangguh itself is not unique.

For some experts Keris Tangguh Pajajaran can only means one thing: Keris made during Pajajaran period.

For others Keris Tangguh Pajajaran can also means Keris made according to the style/type of Keris made during Pajajaran period (but can be recently made).

Cheers,

well said

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2021, 08:18 AM

Frankly, I am not able to confirm or deny that this keris could be classified as Pajajaran from this these photographs, nor from any photographs. It might be, it might not be.

If it is classifiable as Pajajaran, the person who has classified it as this should be able to give which division of Pajajaran, and support his opinion by naming the indicators.

The names given to most , or perhaps all tangguh classifications refer to geographic locations, sometimes to geographic locations as well as eras. Exactly what is meant should be able to be stated.

The form of this keris is the Modern form, that is, it began to proliferate after Islamic domination of Jawa. I have yet to see any representations of this style of keris in monumental works that pre-date 1500.

The earlier form of keris, the Keris Buda is consistently met with in monumental works that predate 1500.

The Kingdom of Pajajaran existed in Sunda from about 1300 to about 1580.

To name this keris as originating in the 12th century is very ambitious.

The Javanese belief system used to place keris into locations or eras is the Tangguh system, it is important to understand that any classification given under the guidelines of the system is purely an opinion. Regretably, whoever gave his opinion that this is a 12th century keris really needs to go back to pre-school.

Jean · 30th July 2021, 08:52 AM

I fully support Alan' opinion, very clear and concise.

David · 30th July 2021, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

I fully support Alan' opinion, very clear and concise.

Ditto...

Ganapati · 31st July 2021, 03:21 AM

thank you David and Mr. Maisey!

Jean · 31st July 2021, 02:23 PM

Hello Ganapati,
Your kris looks like a quite good piece but don't be surprised to learn that it does not date from the 12th century. This confusion is entertained even by reputed kris experts like Tammens (see vol. 1, pages 117, 183, 189 for instance). Please keep in mind that the krisses from the Pajajaran period probably disappeared from the market a long time ago and that the genuine ones would cost a fortune

Regards

28th July 2021, 10:03 PM	#1
Ganapati Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 36	Pajajaran era keris - 12th-13th century? Hi sorry for not posting better pics, they will be forthcoming. I purchased this Keris and was curious about if this was from the Pajajaran era - 12th century. The hilt and sheath are obviously newer. I'm a beginner but passionate collector. Please advise. I will post better pictures when I have the keris in hand next week. Attached Images

30th July 2021, 06:05 AM	#2
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 138	Tangguh Hi Ganapati, I'm a beginner myself so I won't be able to answer your question whether this Keris can be classified Tangguh Pajajaran or not. However, I would like to point out that the definition of Tangguh itself is not unique. For some experts Keris Tangguh Pajajaran can only means one thing: Keris made during Pajajaran period. For others Keris Tangguh Pajajaran can also means Keris made according to the style/type of Keris made during Pajajaran period (but can be recently made). Cheers,

30th July 2021, 08:18 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Frankly, I am not able to confirm or deny that this keris could be classified as Pajajaran from this these photographs, nor from any photographs. It might be, it might not be. If it is classifiable as Pajajaran, the person who has classified it as this should be able to give which division of Pajajaran, and support his opinion by naming the indicators. The names given to most , or perhaps all tangguh classifications refer to geographic locations, sometimes to geographic locations as well as eras. Exactly what is meant should be able to be stated. The form of this keris is the Modern form, that is, it began to proliferate after Islamic domination of Jawa. I have yet to see any representations of this style of keris in monumental works that pre-date 1500. The earlier form of keris, the Keris Buda is consistently met with in monumental works that predate 1500. The Kingdom of Pajajaran existed in Sunda from about 1300 to about 1580. To name this keris as originating in the 12th century is very ambitious. The Javanese belief system used to place keris into locations or eras is the Tangguh system, it is important to understand that any classification given under the guidelines of the system is purely an opinion. Regretably, whoever gave his opinion that this is a 12th century keris really needs to go back to pre-school. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 30th July 2021 at 08:29 AM.

30th July 2021, 08:52 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I fully support Alan' opinion, very clear and concise.

31st July 2021, 03:21 AM	#8
Ganapati Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 36	thank you David and Mr. Maisey!

31st July 2021, 02:23 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Ganapati, Your kris looks like a quite good piece but don't be surprised to learn that it does not date from the 12th century. This confusion is entertained even by reputed kris experts like Tammens (see vol. 1, pages 117, 183, 189 for instance). Please keep in mind that the krisses from the Pajajaran period probably disappeared from the market a long time ago and that the genuine ones would cost a fortune Regards