Damascene and Pamor

Kiai Carita · 17th November 2007, 11:21 PM

Dear forumites,

I have heard that pamor ios damascene, and also I have heard that the two techniques are not the same. Which is the truth can anyone explain the difference if there is any?

Terimakasih banyak,
Bram

A. G. Maisey · 18th November 2007, 07:21 AM

Yeah, they're a bit different.

By "damascene" the writer would be referring to what we call pattern welded steel, or mechanical damascus---damascus steel. This is produced by forge welding alternating layers of ferric material of varying carbon content. This is a similar process to the making of a billet of pamor, but in pamor we prepare the material for further use as the "skin" of a wafer of steel.

Thus, in a pamor blade we have the pamor material on either side of the steel core. The steel core is the part of the blade that can take a heat treat to produce a cutting edge.The pamor is iron, or iron and nickel, and acts as a protective coat for the hardened steel core.Iron will not harden with a heat treat---steel will.

In a damascus blade we have a material that incorporates the qualities that will allow a heat treat for a cutting edge, going all the way through the blade---its the same stuff all the way through and capable of taking a heat treat all the way through.

Pretty much the same process to make both, just with a different end use and different qualities.

Jason Anstey · 18th November 2007, 11:26 PM

... further to what Alan has said, but slightly off topic.

Damascene or Damasteel is different from what true Damastus steel is and has become a bit of a misnomer,

Pulad or wootz is a cruicible steel and is the correct term for the type of steel used in old blades from Damascus. Very few people can make this type of steel these days. A google for the above terms should turn up some images to better illustrate the difference.

Cheers

Jason

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2007, 12:38 AM

Actually Jason, the words "damascene", "damascus", and "damask" can be very confusing and misleading if we do not use them with care.

The English usage of "damascene" is to refer to a type of fabric with a raised design woven into it, or to a method of ornamenting metal with inlaid gold or silver, or to a watered pattern.

When the word "damascus" is combined with either the word "iron", or "steel", it refers to iron and steel welded together in imitation of Damask Steel.

The first known use of the phrase "damask steel" occurred in 1603 , and in the English Language can refer to either steel manufactured at Damascus---that which we would now probably call wootz--- or to its imitation, created as I mention above.

The word "wootz" first appeared in the English Language at the end of the 18th century, but it is only in very recent times that its use has become widespread, probably because of the rise of the custom knife industry.

Damasteel is actually a tradename for a type of factory produced steel having similar appearance to mechanical damascus steel.

http://www.damasteel.com/index.html

josh stout · 14th December 2007, 04:37 PM

I have read about how the pamor of a keris is made with folded steel over a core, but to me this seems simply a variety of pattern welding, and one that sounds extremely similar to Chinese sanmai construction. I think pamor is a general word in Bahasa for the patterns in steel as I think it refers to any patterns including those various pedeng type sabers with inserted edges. In that case the "pamor" would refer to patterns that go all the way through the body of a saber, rather than a skin over a core. Here is a modern made central Javanese pedeng with what might be called a twist core Damascus body and an inserted edge of high carbon steel.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...i/27012798.jpg

This one is interesting because the decorative piercing at the base of the blade allows one to see clearly that the edge plate was inserted into the twist core body rather than being forge welded on in a piled construction as is usually assumed for Chinese and Persian twist core pieces. Also, some sort of temper line is visible along the edge-plate at the base of the blade. At the back of the blade, there is no indication that the edge-plate extends all the way through forming a core.
Josh

A. G. Maisey · 14th December 2007, 08:10 PM

Josh, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

The usual way that we construct a pamor blade is by making the billet of pamor, and then welding it on each side of a piece of steel, effectively making a sandwich of it.

However, there are other methods of construction that we can use, and the pedang you have provided a pic of shows one of these methods.Sometimes a cross section through a blade will show a steel core, sometimes it will not, and the steel will only appear at the cutting edge, or edges. Sometimes there will be no core at all.

Whatever method we may use is really immaterial. The end result is what matters.

Yes, the making of pamor can be considered to be closely allied with what we refer to as "pattern welding".

17th November 2007, 11:21 PM	#1
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Damascene and Pamor Dear forumites, I have heard that pamor ios damascene, and also I have heard that the two techniques are not the same. Which is the truth can anyone explain the difference if there is any? Terimakasih banyak, Bram

18th November 2007, 07:21 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,854	Yeah, they're a bit different. By "damascene" the writer would be referring to what we call pattern welded steel, or mechanical damascus---damascus steel. This is produced by forge welding alternating layers of ferric material of varying carbon content. This is a similar process to the making of a billet of pamor, but in pamor we prepare the material for further use as the "skin" of a wafer of steel. Thus, in a pamor blade we have the pamor material on either side of the steel core. The steel core is the part of the blade that can take a heat treat to produce a cutting edge.The pamor is iron, or iron and nickel, and acts as a protective coat for the hardened steel core.Iron will not harden with a heat treat---steel will. In a damascus blade we have a material that incorporates the qualities that will allow a heat treat for a cutting edge, going all the way through the blade---its the same stuff all the way through and capable of taking a heat treat all the way through. Pretty much the same process to make both, just with a different end use and different qualities.

18th November 2007, 11:26 PM	#3
Jason Anstey Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 102	... further to what Alan has said, but slightly off topic. Damascene or Damasteel is different from what true Damastus steel is and has become a bit of a misnomer, Pulad or wootz is a cruicible steel and is the correct term for the type of steel used in old blades from Damascus. Very few people can make this type of steel these days. A google for the above terms should turn up some images to better illustrate the difference. Cheers Jason

19th November 2007, 12:38 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,854	Actually Jason, the words "damascene", "damascus", and "damask" can be very confusing and misleading if we do not use them with care. The English usage of "damascene" is to refer to a type of fabric with a raised design woven into it, or to a method of ornamenting metal with inlaid gold or silver, or to a watered pattern. When the word "damascus" is combined with either the word "iron", or "steel", it refers to iron and steel welded together in imitation of Damask Steel. The first known use of the phrase "damask steel" occurred in 1603 , and in the English Language can refer to either steel manufactured at Damascus---that which we would now probably call wootz--- or to its imitation, created as I mention above. The word "wootz" first appeared in the English Language at the end of the 18th century, but it is only in very recent times that its use has become widespread, probably because of the rise of the custom knife industry. Damasteel is actually a tradename for a type of factory produced steel having similar appearance to mechanical damascus steel. http://www.damasteel.com/index.html

14th December 2007, 04:37 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I have read about how the pamor of a keris is made with folded steel over a core, but to me this seems simply a variety of pattern welding, and one that sounds extremely similar to Chinese sanmai construction. I think pamor is a general word in Bahasa for the patterns in steel as I think it refers to any patterns including those various pedeng type sabers with inserted edges. In that case the "pamor" would refer to patterns that go all the way through the body of a saber, rather than a skin over a core. Here is a modern made central Javanese pedeng with what might be called a twist core Damascus body and an inserted edge of high carbon steel. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...i/27012798.jpg This one is interesting because the decorative piercing at the base of the blade allows one to see clearly that the edge plate was inserted into the twist core body rather than being forge welded on in a piled construction as is usually assumed for Chinese and Persian twist core pieces. Also, some sort of temper line is visible along the edge-plate at the base of the blade. At the back of the blade, there is no indication that the edge-plate extends all the way through forming a core. Josh

14th December 2007, 08:10 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,854	Josh, there is more than one way to skin a cat. The usual way that we construct a pamor blade is by making the billet of pamor, and then welding it on each side of a piece of steel, effectively making a sandwich of it. However, there are other methods of construction that we can use, and the pedang you have provided a pic of shows one of these methods.Sometimes a cross section through a blade will show a steel core, sometimes it will not, and the steel will only appear at the cutting edge, or edges. Sometimes there will be no core at all. Whatever method we may use is really immaterial. The end result is what matters. Yes, the making of pamor can be considered to be closely allied with what we refer to as "pattern welding".