European sword from XVII or XVIII c. - <?>

buendia · 14th September 2009, 04:50 PM

Hi all the sword fans!

Intuitively I bought the following sword - as it was said to me - a Walloon sword. The blade is 31 inches long. The former owner couldn`t say a word about it. I am new to European blades and I can`t find where does the maker`s mark come from?

What could be a possible dating of this sword?

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2009, 05:40 PM

Hi Buendia,
Welcome to the forum!!

You have certainly made a nice entrance with this excellent example, which I believe is likely of the period you note, end of the 17th and into the 18th century. From the photos everything appears correct, and with the thumb ring I would presume this is a European cavalry sword. I would need to check references to be more precise, but it seems to correspond to Prussian, or quite possibly Swedish examples.
It is not a 'walloon' , which from my understanding of this vaguely placed term typically represents cavalry swords of these periods with bilobate shellguards, and the term itself was used to note swords from the low countries on the Continent.

Look forward to more entries on this, I'm sure with better assessments.

The marking appears to be applied in interpretation of similar markings intended to suggest quality on blades, with this a singular impression of the well known 'sickle marks' used in N.Italy, Austria and Solingen. These were of course placed on the blade center laterally and in pairs, contrary to this apparantly spuriously applied version.
Above that seems to be a cross, suggesting that these markings may have been intended with amuletic value, a practice which seems to have been well established in these times.

All best regards,
Jim

buendia · 14th September 2009, 08:29 PM

Thank you for valuable info. I have found such a picture, but i don`t know what city are they connected with.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/georgix/0rbs.jpg

fernando · 14th September 2009, 09:01 PM

Hi Buendia,
Welcome to the forum

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buendia

Thank you for valuable info. I have found such a picture, but i don`t know what city are they connected with.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/georgix/0rbs.jpg

You will find some info on these marks on post #38 of this link.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30

Best
Fernando

buendia · 14th September 2009, 09:39 PM

Of course! I had it somewhere in my head, but I forgot where. So according to Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie publ. in 1885, this blade should have Solingen origin.
The only difference are the three dots at each end of the crescent or arc or orb (?), but the similarities are too obvious. Well it could be a fake Solingen blade produced in different region (?).

fernando · 14th September 2009, 10:45 PM

Those Turk's heads on the grip look excelent, anyway.
Fernando

buendia · 14th September 2009, 11:03 PM

I have found an interesting info concerning Cross and Orb or in other words
The Cross of Victory->

"CROSS AND ORB - Triumphant - This cross symbolizes the final triumph and reign of Christ over the world. It is often used in Christian art atop the scepter of Jesus as He reigns in glory. This is also sometimes called the Cross of Victory or cross and orb. "Thanks be to God! He gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Corinthians 15:57

The Cross of Victory, also known as the "Cross of Triumph" or simply "Cross and Orb," is very old. The latter description comes from its origin as an image of the orb of the world surmounted by the cross which began appearing around the eighth century in Christian art and Byzantine coins. This, by the way, is a rather obvious contradiction of the already thoroughly discredited myth that medieval Christians generally believed the world was flat. Many denominational churches use the Victory Cross in their seals, logos, and art."

" represents the sovereignty of the spiritual over the temporal "

I would say that the marking on my blade, despite it is a half of an orb, is a form of the Cross of Victory?????

The victory of Jesus personified by the sword...

14th September 2009, 04:50 PM	#1
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	European sword from XVII or XVIII c. - <?> Hi all the sword fans! Intuitively I bought the following sword - as it was said to me - a Walloon sword. The blade is 31 inches long. The former owner couldn`t say a word about it. I am new to European blades and I can`t find where does the maker`s mark come from? What could be a possible dating of this sword?

14th September 2009, 05:40 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Buendia, Welcome to the forum!! You have certainly made a nice entrance with this excellent example, which I believe is likely of the period you note, end of the 17th and into the 18th century. From the photos everything appears correct, and with the thumb ring I would presume this is a European cavalry sword. I would need to check references to be more precise, but it seems to correspond to Prussian, or quite possibly Swedish examples. It is not a 'walloon' , which from my understanding of this vaguely placed term typically represents cavalry swords of these periods with bilobate shellguards, and the term itself was used to note swords from the low countries on the Continent. Look forward to more entries on this, I'm sure with better assessments. The marking appears to be applied in interpretation of similar markings intended to suggest quality on blades, with this a singular impression of the well known 'sickle marks' used in N.Italy, Austria and Solingen. These were of course placed on the blade center laterally and in pairs, contrary to this apparantly spuriously applied version. Above that seems to be a cross, suggesting that these markings may have been intended with amuletic value, a practice which seems to have been well established in these times. All best regards, Jim

14th September 2009, 08:29 PM	#3
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	Thank you for valuable info. I have found such a picture, but i don`t know what city are they connected with. http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/georgix/0rbs.jpg

14th September 2009, 09:39 PM	#5
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	Of course! I had it somewhere in my head, but I forgot where. So according to Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie publ. in 1885, this blade should have Solingen origin. The only difference are the three dots at each end of the crescent or arc or orb (?), but the similarities are too obvious. Well it could be a fake Solingen blade produced in different region (?).

14th September 2009, 10:45 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Those Turk's heads on the grip look excelent, anyway. Fernando

14th September 2009, 11:03 PM	#7
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	I have found an interesting info concerning Cross and Orb or in other words The Cross of Victory-> "CROSS AND ORB - Triumphant - This cross symbolizes the final triumph and reign of Christ over the world. It is often used in Christian art atop the scepter of Jesus as He reigns in glory. This is also sometimes called the Cross of Victory or cross and orb. "Thanks be to God! He gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Corinthians 15:57 The Cross of Victory, also known as the "Cross of Triumph" or simply "Cross and Orb," is very old. The latter description comes from its origin as an image of the orb of the world surmounted by the cross which began appearing around the eighth century in Christian art and Byzantine coins. This, by the way, is a rather obvious contradiction of the already thoroughly discredited myth that medieval Christians generally believed the world was flat. Many denominational churches use the Victory Cross in their seals, logos, and art." " represents the sovereignty of the spiritual over the temporal " I would say that the marking on my blade, despite it is a half of an orb, is a form of the Cross of Victory????? The victory of Jesus personified by the sword...