Khyber knife?

[Skiendubh]

Years ago, I bought a "Khyber Knife". It is 23" overall, with an 18" blade, of typical profile. However, recently I found out that Khyber Knives are 'T' shape in cross section, mine is flat. So, is this a non typical Khyber Knife, a blade from another region which is of similar profile, but flat, or is it a nicely made, and aged , fake? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Bob A]

Pictures would be useful if you can upload them.

[Ian]

Skiendubh:

If you are having trouble uploading files, please read the sticky near the top of the Ethnographic Forum index about uploading pictures. If you still have problems please PM me and we can sort it out. Please note the maximum file sizes allowed--this is the most common problem with uploading files.

Ian

[Skiendubh]

Thank you Bob A and Ian, for your replies. I did try to upload a picture, unsuccessfully. I'm sorry Ian, but I didn't know where to find the sticky note, whatever that is, and what is a PM? Can you supply a more easy to follow instruction for a newbie like myself to follow? I tried to ask FAQ for an answer, no luck there either. Your help is greatly appreciated. Skiendubh.

[Lee]

Posting Images Instructions

[Interested Party]

Go to "Ethnographic Weapons" third post down. You will have to resize your pictures to less than 1280 on the largest side.



Sorry duplicate instructions. Delete if possible.

[Skiendubh]

Here is the picture of my "Khyber"? knife. Hopefully someone will recognize what it is.

[Skiendubh]

Thank you for your comments. I have heard that holes were drilled by the English to mount blades on their walls. So the Russians did this as well, or maybe the English didn't drill the holes, just the Russians? Thank you. The bolt in the picture holds my machine vice to a lump of timber, which gives stability and ease of manipulating various jobs in a more secure manner than the old reliable Mark 1, five finger vice. The blade isn't really flat, but kinda oval, it is sharp along one edge, with a consistent bevel of 0.250" and has a semi [ butter knife? ] sharp back edge , about 5" long, before it tapers out to a 0.100" thickness at the hilt, and the blade also distally tapers, it is 0.150" at the hilt, and is 0.125 just back from the point. The tang is full profile, with slabs of wood held by 3 pins, and the handle does taper towards the butt. At the the butt, it is 1.325" and where the metal starts, the wood is 1.125". I think that this answers the questions in your comments. About my name, I was told that sgian dubh is celt for black knife/sword, and that black could be interpreted as covert. I use skien as it is phonically correct, as well, and sgiandubh is/has been used by other people as their nom de plume. So once again, a big thank you to all.

[Skiendubh]

I thank all of you people for your replies. So, on the whole, I take it that the consensus is that I do have an atypical Khyber knife?

Anyhow, for my replies.

Firstly, skien dubh is celtic for black knife/sword. I read that dubh can also refer to something hidden/covert, and it was a hidden/covert blade when worn in the sock of a Scot, and maybe Irish? It is usually written as sgian dubh, but this is usually already taken, so I use this alternate phonetic spelling as my nom de plume.

As for the hole in the blade, which is 0.125" in diameter, I was informed that it was used by the English to mount blades on their walls, so you say that it was also used by the Russians. Or was it just the Russians? Good to know anyway.

The bolt in the picture is used to mount my machine vice to a lump of wood, which gives a mobile and reasonably stable work place to hold pieces to work on. Not ideal, but a whole lot better than the Mark 1 mobile vice. a.k.a. Hand.

More measurements. The blade is 18” long, and 1.970” wide at the base. As seen, it tapers gradually towards the point, and the taper increases within the last inch or so, to the point. The cross section of the blade isn't really flat, more flat/oval ish, The edge is sharp and is the entire length of one side, and has a 0.250” bevel associated with it. It has a 'butter knife' sharp swage/false edge, is 5” long, which then tapers out to 0.100” wide at the hilt. The blade does have a distill taper, and starts at 0.150” at the hilt, going down to 0.125” measured at 0.500” [ where the bevels of both edges start ] back from the point.

The handle is 4.950" from the blade to the butt, and has a full profile tang with the bolsters attached to the hilt, don't know how, as I cannot see any rivets or solder. The wood is attached by 3 rivets. The wood also tapers, starting at 1.175” behind the bolsters, and goes to 1.375” thick, 0.750” from the butt.

It had a basic wooden scabbard, which followed the shape of the blade. which was covered in thin black leather, same as a Kukeri scabbard normally uses. It was in extremely poor condition, so I discarded it.

I have also heard that English doctors of the era commented about the normal habit of using these blades was to slash the enemies, and rarely, if ever, were they used to stab, though the shape cries out that they were really well designed to stab with. My opinion. And the fact that my blade is flat, as opposed to the normal 't' cross section blades, is why I wondered if it really is a Khyber knife or not. One time I cleaned the blade and thought that I saw it was patterned, like wootz steel. Though I haven't seen it since that one time. Imagination?

[ariel]

There is not much rhyme and reason to Afghani traditional weapons. Tribes had their local peculiar features, to which even their own village armorers subscribed quite loosely. And taking into account that similar swords were manufactured across the country, up north in various emirates in what is now Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, other “stans” , India and Persia, by everyone with a hammer and an anvil ( or even a more or less flat boulder), the variability must have been enormous. Indeed, some are straight, some are recurved, diferent sizes , widths etc. I have seen pictures of contemporary Uzbeki bazaars where similar items were sold from a knife stand as just butcher knives. However, a false edge you describe is another non=traditional feature. Usually, these “ khybers” had no false edges. Would be nice to be able to see it photographed. How thick is the blade? It is a modestly unusual “khyber”, but khyber it is. Age-wise it is likely between 1830 and 1930: not a lot of cultural revolutions happened in that bizarre part of the world,,,,
In general, better pics of the different sides of the handle might be interesting. Is it wooden? Any losses?

I have been to a couple of old British bars with Indian and Afghani swords nailed to the wall. Provincial Russian museums have no monopoly on such a way of assuring that the visitors would not hack each other to pieces. I do not think that this blade was ever mounted on a “khanda” handle: the hole is quite off-center and neatly drilled. I am with the nail croud:-), a

[Saracen]

I agree that this Khyber knife could have been nailed to the wall, since there are so many of you, supporters of this idea, and Ariel is with you )
Only the secondary use of the blade is really not uncommon.
In two photos from oriental-arms, the drawings around the holes show that they were made on a hot blade during its manufacture (thanks to the eagle eye of RenRen ).
And it is unlikely that anyone raised a hand to nail it to the wall of the bar with two nails.
And on a seriously resharpening, reformatted blade it is useless to try to understand whether there was a hole in the center.

[ariel]

In addition to being off center, the hole is far too close to the bolster to support the “ basket” khanda handle theory.
I checked my 5 “khanda” handle swords ; the rivets on all of them are 8-12 cm away from the base. That makes a good engineering sense: the farther away on the blade is the support point ( the rivet), the more forceful should be the blow to the blade to dislodge it. Also, I cannot recall ever seeing a “khyber” with the “ khanda” handle, although some modern Indian forgers might have created something like that:-)

[Saracen]

Alternatively: the khanda (firangi) blade was broken at the hilt, and the khyber knife handle was formed again closer to the hole.
And the bartender didn't even have to drill a hole to nail the khyber knife to the wall