ID for Ancient Kujang / Kudi? Hindu /Siam/Persian influence?

doecon · 9th May 2006, 02:01 PM

See below for pics.

Found recently eastern java. Roughly a 1000 yrs old (with a 300 yr margin) Blade 8” and tang 4”. Tang is square, like early Keris Budha (if you have one pls do add your picture for reference to compare tang). The shape seems to be complete, but the tip might have been broken off. Looks like a farming tool, but it seems not useful for harvesting rice (add a handle to it and it becomes a to long to reach, plus the blade is somewhat heavy)

Have seen slightly similar shapes in some Durga Mahisasuramardini statues (9th 10th century mid/east java). The most nearest example however is in the in the relief of sukuh (see below). The sukuh example seems to be a more sophisticated blade, so maybe this is the more earlier and primitive version. Looking for some clues, maybe similar shaped blades in other region and/or more recent “cousins” of this blade. Any opinion or comment welcome. See below for additional pics.

doecon · 9th May 2006, 02:04 PM

oops, forget the sukuh relief

Andrew · 9th May 2006, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

See below for pics.

Found recently eastern java. Roughly a 1000 yrs old (with a 300 yr margin) Blade 8” and tang 4”. Tang is square, like early Keris Budha (if you have one pls do add your picture for reference to compare tang). The shape seems to be complete, but the tip might have been broken off. Looks like a farming tool, but it seems not useful for harvesting rice (add a handle to it and it becomes a to long to reach, plus the blade is somewhat heavy)

Have seen slightly similar shapes in some Durga Mahisasuramardini statues (9th 10th century mid/east java). The most nearest example however is in the in the relief of sukuh (see below). The sukuh example seems to be a more sophisticated blade, so maybe this is the more earlier and primitive version. Looking for some clues, maybe similar shaped blades in other region and/or more recent “cousins” of this blade. Any opinion or comment welcome. See below for additional pics.

Very interesting. How do you know this is 1000 years old? Do you intend to sell this?

doecon · 9th May 2006, 02:43 PM

It is indeed intresting. As mentioned I roughtly estimated it somewhere between 7th and 13th century. As far as I know the details on the tang havent been seen/made like this since the 14th century. As mentioned the "cousin" in the relief above looks already more sophisticated. So its clearl before 14th c, unfortunatly I dont have further refference to close in a more exact timeframe.

I think I'll keep this piece for a while, so its not for sale

Battara · 9th May 2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Very interesting. How do you know this is 1000 years old?

I understand Andrew's question. They have been making some of the same style and type of pieces for centuries without much alteration (if any at all). I agree the style and type is the same, but is this actual piece 1000 years old or so (rust not with standing since something 20 years in acid soil would look the same)?

ariel · 9th May 2006, 10:10 PM

What's hanging between the legs of the leftmost figure?
A kora?
Can't see any elephant features (as in the middle one) to suspect a trunk, and it is a bit too optimistic(?) for anything else...

doecon · 9th May 2006, 10:18 PM

As far as I know there is no modern version around (here), so it couldnt have been put in acid for 20 years. I think there is enough pictures already to show that its indeed an old piece. (No need also to put something in acid for 20 years if nobody knows what it is right?)

But if you know a modern version then please share it with us, I'm seriously intrested. In case you know examples that have been around for century's, then please indicate where (with link if posible).

doecon · 9th May 2006, 10:23 PM

Ariel, the relief is indeed near so called "fertility" cult place

Check : Candi Sukuh, Mount Lawu, Java for more optimistic details.

ariel · 9th May 2006, 10:29 PM

They certainly have an exaggerated opinion about their accoutrements.
As to the original one, this is the first "Dhu-l-Fiqar" phallus in medical history...

Andrew · 10th May 2006, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

As far as I know there is no modern version around (here), so it couldnt have been put in acid for 20 years.

I disagree. This defies logic. Because you are unaware of any modern version certainly does not mean one (or many) do not exist.

Quote:

I think there is enough pictures already to show that its indeed an old piece.

In my opinion, pictures alone are insufficient to use in determining the age of any artifact.

Quote:

(No need also to put something in acid for 20 years if nobody knows what it is right?)

I'm not sure what you mean, doecon. Is this an otherwise unknown form? In any event, I think Battara was suggesting that even an innocent exposure to an acidic environment could make an iron item look quite old.

Quote:

But if you know a modern version then please share it with us, I'm seriously intrested. In case you know examples that have been around for century's, then please indicate where (with link if posible).

Personally, my skepticism arises from the extreme rarity of 1000 year old weapons, rather than the existence (or non-existence) of contemporary examples. Further, we have all seen and handled objects in similar condition which have been artificially aged.

You've definitely given me some support for your position that the form is ancient but, I'm afraid that, without some solid provenance, I will continue to be a skeptic as to the age of this particular item.

B.I · 10th May 2006, 12:52 AM

hi,
i agree with a lot of what andrew says, although i think 'solid provenance' could be asking too much. maybe a more convincing arguement is what is needed.
i seem to recall a relatively recent thread on artificially aged keris (i think). i found this fascinating as i know virtually nothing about this culture, and the forum members here posted a few generic examples which had been aged to decieve, and so it was very informative. all of these examples had this greyish patina from the acid used.
in my ignorance of the subject, this seems to have a similar patina.
i dont have a problem with whether 'ancient' or antique weapons were reproduced, even unknown forms such as this apparantly is.
with the advent of the internet, weapon collecting has become more popular and easier to aquire (not only do you not need to leave your country, but you dont even have to leave your armchair anymore). so much so, there has been a steady increase of fakes and forgeries and a photograph can hide a multitude of lies. there is no point making a fake that is well known and will be spotted straight away, a point that seems to have gone past certain chinese ebay sellers.
i am not saying that this is the case here, but it seems that because of this increase in fraudulant pieces, the ability to assume has now gone and the pressure is on to prove authenticity past a personal opinion.
i hope that doecon will take up the 'challenge' to substantiate his claims, as it will be a good learning curve for us involved in other cultures (you know, the ones quite low down on the recent poll!

)
however, we are a suspicious lot and it will have to be more convincing than what's already been stated

Pangeran Datu · 10th May 2006, 02:24 AM

Hi All,
This may help the quest for information. IMVHO, Kujang and Kudi have similar shapes, but the kujang is mainly a cut-n-thrust implement,while the kudi is a tombak or short throwing spear. The Kudi is a traditonal implement found mainly on Java and Madura, while the Kujang is a traditional implement peculiar to the Sunda people of West Java ( mainly in the area known as Parahyangan). I believe that the Kujang was first produced circa 13-14C., during the Pajajaran kingdom. With regard to the tang, I must admit that in my very limited experience, I've only ever seen round ones on old pieces ( new ones tend to have rectangular ones). That is not to say , rectangular ones weren't used in old pieces

With respect to the piece in the picture, I have seen similar shapes in the following collections:

- Yayasan Pangeran Sumedang, Sumedang, West Java, Indonesia.

- Peninggalan Sejarah Sukapura, Tasikmalaya, West Java, Indonesia.

Hope it helps.

9th May 2006, 02:01 PM	#1
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	ID for Ancient Kujang / Kudi? Hindu /Siam/Persian influence? See below for pics. Found recently eastern java. Roughly a 1000 yrs old (with a 300 yr margin) Blade 8” and tang 4”. Tang is square, like early Keris Budha (if you have one pls do add your picture for reference to compare tang). The shape seems to be complete, but the tip might have been broken off. Looks like a farming tool, but it seems not useful for harvesting rice (add a handle to it and it becomes a to long to reach, plus the blade is somewhat heavy) Have seen slightly similar shapes in some Durga Mahisasuramardini statues (9th 10th century mid/east java). The most nearest example however is in the in the relief of sukuh (see below). The sukuh example seems to be a more sophisticated blade, so maybe this is the more earlier and primitive version. Looking for some clues, maybe similar shaped blades in other region and/or more recent “cousins” of this blade. Any opinion or comment welcome. See below for additional pics. Attached Images

9th May 2006, 02:04 PM	#2
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	oops, forget the sukuh relief Attached Images

9th May 2006, 10:10 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What's hanging between the legs of the leftmost figure? A kora? Can't see any elephant features (as in the middle one) to suspect a trunk, and it is a bit too optimistic(?) for anything else... Last edited by ariel; 9th May 2006 at 10:20 PM.

9th May 2006, 02:43 PM	#4
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	It is indeed intresting. As mentioned I roughtly estimated it somewhere between 7th and 13th century. As far as I know the details on the tang havent been seen/made like this since the 14th century. As mentioned the "cousin" in the relief above looks already more sophisticated. So its clearl before 14th c, unfortunatly I dont have further refference to close in a more exact timeframe. I think I'll keep this piece for a while, so its not for sale

9th May 2006, 10:18 PM	#7
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	As far as I know there is no modern version around (here), so it couldnt have been put in acid for 20 years. I think there is enough pictures already to show that its indeed an old piece. (No need also to put something in acid for 20 years if nobody knows what it is right?) But if you know a modern version then please share it with us, I'm seriously intrested. In case you know examples that have been around for century's, then please indicate where (with link if posible).

9th May 2006, 10:23 PM	#8
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Ariel, the relief is indeed near so called "fertility" cult place Check : Candi Sukuh, Mount Lawu, Java for more optimistic details.

9th May 2006, 10:29 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	They certainly have an exaggerated opinion about their accoutrements. As to the original one, this is the first "Dhu-l-Fiqar" phallus in medical history...

10th May 2006, 12:52 AM	#11
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, i agree with a lot of what andrew says, although i think 'solid provenance' could be asking too much. maybe a more convincing arguement is what is needed. i seem to recall a relatively recent thread on artificially aged keris (i think). i found this fascinating as i know virtually nothing about this culture, and the forum members here posted a few generic examples which had been aged to decieve, and so it was very informative. all of these examples had this greyish patina from the acid used. in my ignorance of the subject, this seems to have a similar patina. i dont have a problem with whether 'ancient' or antique weapons were reproduced, even unknown forms such as this apparantly is. with the advent of the internet, weapon collecting has become more popular and easier to aquire (not only do you not need to leave your country, but you dont even have to leave your armchair anymore). so much so, there has been a steady increase of fakes and forgeries and a photograph can hide a multitude of lies. there is no point making a fake that is well known and will be spotted straight away, a point that seems to have gone past certain chinese ebay sellers. i am not saying that this is the case here, but it seems that because of this increase in fraudulant pieces, the ability to assume has now gone and the pressure is on to prove authenticity past a personal opinion. i hope that doecon will take up the 'challenge' to substantiate his claims, as it will be a good learning curve for us involved in other cultures (you know, the ones quite low down on the recent poll! ) however, we are a suspicious lot and it will have to be more convincing than what's already been stated

10th May 2006, 02:24 AM	#12
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Hi All, This may help the quest for information. IMVHO, Kujang and Kudi have similar shapes, but the kujang is mainly a cut-n-thrust implement,while the kudi is a tombak or short throwing spear. The Kudi is a traditonal implement found mainly on Java and Madura, while the Kujang is a traditional implement peculiar to the Sunda people of West Java ( mainly in the area known as Parahyangan). I believe that the Kujang was first produced circa 13-14C., during the Pajajaran kingdom. With regard to the tang, I must admit that in my very limited experience, I've only ever seen round ones on old pieces ( new ones tend to have rectangular ones). That is not to say , rectangular ones weren't used in old pieces With respect to the piece in the picture, I have seen similar shapes in the following collections: - Yayasan Pangeran Sumedang, Sumedang, West Java, Indonesia. - Peninggalan Sejarah Sukapura, Tasikmalaya, West Java, Indonesia. Hope it helps.