the Kampilan exclusively Moro?

[MaharlikaTimawa]

Although the kampilan is said to have been imported to parts of the visayan and luzon islands, is the Kampilan for the most part exclusive to the moros, as the katana is exclusive to Japan.

It seems theres not a lot of weapons being documented for the visayans and the low-landers of luzon and most pre-colonial weaponary such as the panabas and the kampilan are known to be manufactured amongst them either.

I deduce that this had to do with the lack of recorded history of them due to it possibly being destroyed by spain and america to keep the natives from being well armed.
[/FONT]







"There were two kinds of swords -- kris (Visayan kalis) and kampilan, both words of Malay origin. The kris was a long double-edged blade (modern specimens run to 60 to 70 centimeters), either straight or wavy but characterized by an asymmetrical hornlike flare at the hilt end, called kalaw-kalaw after the kalaw hornbill. The wavy kris was called kiwo-kiwo, and so was an astute, devious man whose movement cannot be predicted. Hilts were carved of any solid material -- hardwood, bone, antler, even shell -- and great datu warriors had them of solid gold or encrusted with precious stones. Blades were forged from layers of different grades of steel, which gave them a veined or mottled surface -- damascended or "watered." But even the best Visayan products were considered inferior to those from Mindanao or Sulu, and these in turn were less esteemed than imports from Makassar and Borneo. Alcina thought the best of them excelled Spanish blades.

"The word kampilan came into Spanish during the Moluccan campaigns of the sixteenth century as "a heavy, pointed cutlass [alfange]" -- inappropriately, however, since a cutlass had a curved blade weighted toward the tip for slashing blows, while the kampilan was straight. (Modern ones are two-handed weapons running to 90 centimeters.) It apparently was never manufactured by Visayan smiths but imported from parts of Mindanao, both Muslim and pagan, which had direct culture contact with the Moluccas. Like the kris, it was coated with poison before going into battle, and the fiction that the weapon itself has been rendered poisonous by some alchemy no doubt enhanced its market value. Fine ones were handed down from father to son, bore personal names known to the enemy, and could be recognized by the sound of little bells which formed part of their tasseled decoration."

[David]

Originally Posted by MaharlikaTimawa

Although the kampilan is said to have been imported to parts of the visayan and luzon islands, is the Kampilan for the most part exclusive to the moros, as the katana is exclusive to Japan.

It seems theres not a lot of weapons being documented for the visayans and the low-landers of luzon and most pre-colonial weaponary such as the panabas and the kampilan are known to be manufactured amongst them either.

I deduce that this had to do with the lack of recorded history of them due to it possibly being destroyed by spain and america to keep the natives from being well armed.
[/FONT]
"There were two kinds of swords -- kris (Visayan kalis) and kampilan, both words of Malay origin. The kris was a long double-edged blade (modern specimens run to 60 to 70 centimeters), either straight or wavy but characterized by an asymmetrical hornlike flare at the hilt end, called kalaw-kalaw after the kalaw hornbill. The wavy kris was called kiwo-kiwo, and so was an astute, devious man whose movement cannot be predicted. Hilts were carved of any solid material -- hardwood, bone, antler, even shell -- and great datu warriors had them of solid gold or encrusted with precious stones. Blades were forged from layers of different grades of steel, which gave them a veined or mottled surface -- damascended or "watered." But even the best Visayan products were considered inferior to those from Mindanao or Sulu, and these in turn were less esteemed than imports from Makassar and Borneo. Alcina thought the best of them excelled Spanish blades.

"The word kampilan came into Spanish during the Moluccan campaigns of the sixteenth century as "a heavy, pointed cutlass [alfange]" -- inappropriately, however, since a cutlass had a curved blade weighted toward the tip for slashing blows, while the kampilan was straight. (Modern ones are two-handed weapons running to 90 centimeters.) It apparently was never manufactured by Visayan smiths but imported from parts of Mindanao, both Muslim and pagan, which had direct culture contact with the Moluccas. Like the kris, it was coated with poison before going into battle, and the fiction that the weapon itself has been rendered poisonous by some alchemy no doubt enhanced its market value. Fine ones were handed down from father to son, bore personal names known to the enemy, and could be recognized by the sound of little bells which formed part of their tasseled decoration."

Hi Maharlika, welcome to the forum.
Where is this quoted account taken from. It seems to have some slight inaccuracies as far as i know.
Firstly as far as i know the kris/kalis is not of Visayan origin and the swords i have seen that are sometimes called Visayan kris are only called as such due to their wavy blades. The kris is a Moro weapon and the Visayan are not Moro.
Also, while datu kris can have fairly fancy hilts they very rarely are bejeweled and when gold is present it is generally saussa, not solid gold. It is possible that this writer is confusing Moro kris with their Indonesian counter-part, the keris.
The kampilan is also a weapon of Moro origin, though i have seen Visayan versions.

[MaharlikaTimawa]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Maharlika, welcome to the forum.
Where is this quoted account taken from. It seems to have some slight inaccuracies as far as i know.
Firstly as far as i know the kris/kalis is not of Visayan origin and the swords i have seen that are sometimes called Visayan kris are only called as such due to their wavy blades. The kris is a Moro weapon and the Visayan are not Moro.
Also, while datu kris can have fairly fancy hilts they very rarely are bejeweled and when gold is present it is generally saussa, not solid gold. It is possible that this writer is confusing Moro kris with their Indonesian counter-part, the keris.
The kampilan is also a weapon of Moro origin, though i have seen Visayan versions.

Hello David, I got this quote from William Henry Scott's Barangay --Sixteenth-Century Philippine Culture & Society.

But to be more specific, from here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

My questions are concerned on how it seems that the weapons used by the more animist regions in low-land Luzon and the Visayans seem to lack weaponry more suitable for fighting as opposed to their more Muslim counter-parts. Even those of Islamic religion in Luzon seem to lack those same weapons and my assumption is based on possibilities of destroyed evidence made from Spaniards/Americans to keep the people from being armed.

[Battara]

Mabuhay Maharlika Timawa,

To my understanding early accounts of the Philippines seem to indicate the kampilan was not a Moro creation so much as it was a common weapon in various forms among several island areas from Borneo to the Malaccas to Luzon to he Visayas to the Moro lands. With the advent of colonial Spanish rule, it seems to have died out among the Luzonos and Visayans.

Note: if I remember right, the Luzon version as shorter than the Maranao version.

And yes, the Spanish banned bladed weaponry in their areas of control (as much as they could) because Filipinos were too good with bolos - any bolos.

[MaharlikaTimawa]

Originally Posted by Battara

Mabuhay Maharlika Timawa,

To my understanding early accounts of the Philippines seem to indicate the kampilan was not a Moro creation so much as it was a common weapon in various forms among several island areas from Borneo to the Malaccas to Luzon to he Visayas to the Moro lands. With the advent of colonial Spanish rule, it seems to have died out among the Luzonos and Visayans.

Note: if I remember right, the Luzon version as shorter than the Maranao version.

And yes, the Spanish banned bladed weaponry in their areas of control (as much as they could) because Filipinos were too good with bolos - any bolos.

Hello Battara,

Very interesting output. Considering the sizes of the kampilans found in Moro land the seem to be from At about 36 to 40 inches, I'm curious as to what the size for the ones manufactured in the Luzon and Visayan regions. How common do you propose it was amongst the animist regions of southern luzon and the visayas, I'd imagine they weren't as naked when it comes to long swords as their indonesian/malaysian counterpart.



I would also like to add that igorots may or may have not made their own panabas's somewhat smaller than there moro counter parts with some just as big while others are smaller, possibly ban of weapons from Spaniard too?

[MaharlikaTimawa]

Originally Posted by Battara

Mabuhay Maharlika Timawa,

To my understanding early accounts of the Philippines seem to indicate the kampilan was not a Moro creation so much as it was a common weapon in various forms among several island areas from Borneo to the Malaccas to Luzon to he Visayas to the Moro lands. With the advent of colonial Spanish rule, it seems to have died out among the Luzonos and Visayans.

Note: if I remember right, the Luzon version as shorter than the Maranao version.

And yes, the Spanish banned bladed weaponry in their areas of control (as much as they could) because Filipinos were too good with bolos - any bolos.

Shorter? The sizes the kampilan usually comes in, is 36-48 inches (3-4ft) in length. Quite odd that the kris was evidently used in the Visayans while the the Kampilan is still a theory. Although, The Visayans use of Kiuo or quiuoquiuo which was “wavy” like the Muslim kris. The Calis was a sword used by the three regions. The kampil or kampilan was favored for close range fighting but the lack of the word in the vocabularios makes it evident that it was not made by both Visayans and Tagalog smiths. Presumably, they were made and brought in from Mindanao by Muslim traders.

But again this is also just a theory considering that swords like the katana was used by the animist filipinos from trade with the Japanese. Isn't it possible that the Filipinos had their own long sword whether it may of been the kampilan or something else? the dayaks had weapon that very much resembles the kampilan and they were also animist. Maybe its possible that the kampilan existed among Visayans and Luzon.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by MaharlikaTimawa

Maybe its possible that the kampilan existed among Visayans and Luzon.

Oh I very much agree with you Maharlika Timawa!

I also agree that it was possible that the Moros brought the kampilan to the Visayas and Luzon, and perhaps to Borneo, Celebes, etc, or it came from those areas. With such scant evidence it is difficult tell who started this blade form.

In fact, could it be possible that the kampilan form could have had different names depending on the tribe and region? This happens today among the tribes for the same sword form.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by MaharlikaTimawa

"The word kampilan came into Spanish during the Moluccan campaigns of the sixteenth century as "a heavy, pointed cutlass [alfange]" -- inappropriately, however, since a cutlass had a curved blade weighted toward the tip for slashing blows, while the kampilan was straight. (Modern ones are two-handed weapons running to 90 centimeters.) It apparently was never manufactured by Visayan smiths but imported from parts of Mindanao, both Muslim and pagan, which had direct culture contact with the Moluccas. Like the kris, it was coated with poison before going into battle, and the fiction that the weapon itself has been rendered poisonous by some alchemy no doubt enhanced its market value. Fine ones were handed down from father to son, bore personal names known to the enemy, and could be recognized by the sound of little bells which formed part of their tasseled decoration."

MaharlikaTimawa, I draw particular attention to the notes above that I have highlighted in bold and the previous sentence.

I see no error in your historical notation about these Kampilan being a heavy pointed cutlass, they may well have been in the day, much more so than later times...I say this because I own a curved cutlass sized Kampilan.

Gavin

[Timo Nieminen]

Plenty of straight cutlasses out there, too. Curved isn't necessary.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Plenty of straight cutlasses out there, too. Curved isn't necessary.

Well noted Timo!
The term 'cutlass' seems often rather collectively applied in many references and contemporary narratives. I think it is much in the same way as many military swords and others are referred to as 'sabres' though their blades are virtually straight. Then there is the term 'scimitar', which is more of a notion than a sword 'type', characteristically an embellished reference to an 'Oriental' curved sabre.

As we discuss many of these sword forms and look to early accounts and descriptions of these by 'term', it can of course be confounding as we cannot be certain the semantics correspond to our modern perceptions.

[David]

Originally Posted by MaharlikaTimawa

Like the kris, it was coated with poison before going into battle, and the fiction that the weapon itself has been rendered poisonous by some alchemy no doubt enhanced its market value.

I have heard lore that poisons were used on blades, but have yet to see any qualified evidence of this. Anyone have more information or verification of this?

[VANDOO]

NOT KNOWING THE BASE LINE METAL WEAPONS ( FIRST ONES) TO COME TO THE PHILIPPINES WE HAVE TO USE CONJECTURE, LOGIC AND BEST GUESS TO PREDICT THEIR LIKELY EVOLUTION.
TO START WITH WE CAN ASSUME ALL THE TRIBES WOULD HAVE BEEN PAGANS ( A TERM USED BY ALL MAJOR RELIGIONS TO DESCRIBE THE BELIEFS OF TRIBAL PEOPLE OR ONES NOT OF THEIR RELIGION). HEADHUNTING WAS WIDELY PRACTICED BUT THE EXTERMINATION OR ENSLAVING OF ENTIRE TRIBES VERY UNCOMMON AT THAT TIME. MOST TRIBES WERE LIKELY RELATED AS MANY HAD SPLIT AND MOVED APART TO HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SURVIVE. COMPETITION FOR TERRITORY AS WELL AS PRESTIGE AMONG THESE GROUPS WOULD HAVE INCLUDED HEADHUNTING RAIDS.
THE DAYAKS AND NAGAS WERE BOTH HEADHUNTERS AND FAVORED A HEAVY BLUNT ENDED PARANG ( MANDAU OR NAG AX) THE TIBOLI AND BAGOBO STILL FAVOR THIS FORM OF BLADE AND I SUSPECT THIS WAS THE FAVORED FORM THRU-OUT THE ISLANDS BEFORE THE MOROS OR SPAIN CAME. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN TRADE AND INFLUENCES FROM MALAY, BATAK, CHINESE AND PERHAPS OTHERS AS WELL. I ATTRIBUTE THE LONG SHARP POINTED WEAPONS TO BE PRIMARILY FROM SPANISH INFLUENCE AND THE BOWIE BLADE SHAPE PERHAPS FROM LATER AMERICAN INFLUENCES. THE KAMPILIAN PROBABLY WAS A LARGER VERSION OF THE EARLIER BLUNT ENDED PARANGS. THE MORO MAY HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DEVELOP THE KAMPILIAN OR IT COULD HAVE COME FROM ELSEWHERE AND BEEN ADOPTED BY THEM.?
WHO BROUGHT IN THE FIRST METAL BLADES FOR TRADE IS UNKNOWN. MOORS WHO STARTED THE MOROS FAVORED LARGER WEAPONS AND WERE MORE WARLIKE THAN THE PAGAN TRIBES AND NO DOUBT HAD MORE AND BETTER WEAPONS. INSTEAD OF JUST PROTECTING THEIR TERRITORY AND RAISING THEIR OWN CROPS THEY RAIDED FOR SLAVES. THE SLAVES DID ALL THE WORK LEAVING THE MEN FREE TO MAKE WAR AND HAVE MANY WIVES AND CHILDREN WHICH REQUIRED MORE SLAVES TO SERVE THEM. THIS SYSTEM IS WHAT MADE THE REPUTATION AS GREAT WARRIORS THAT THE MOROS DEVELOPED. THEY DEVELOPED LARGER WEAPONS BETTER SUITED FOR WAR AND PRACTICED AND TRAINED PRIMARILY TO BE WARRIORS. THE PAGAN TRIBES WENT ON THE OCCASIONAL HEADHUNTING RAID AND HAD OCCASIONAL BATTLES TO DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY BUT WERE NOT PROFESSIONAL WARRIORS. PAGAN TRIBES HUNTED, FARMED, AND MOSTLY DID THEIR OWN WORK NOT HAVING LARGE NUMBERS OF SLAVES .
THE MYSTIC STORIES OF THE KERIS OR PERHAPS SOME SLAVES TAKEN OR BOUGHT FROM THE REGIONS WHERE THE KERIS DAGGERS AND LEGENDS WERE, WAS LIKELY THE SOURCE OF THE CREATION OF THE MORO KRIS. THE MORO FAVORED A LARGE SWORD CAPABLE OF REMOVING HEADS AND LIMBS SO A LARGER MODIFIED VERSION INCORPORATING SOME OF THE MAGICAL FEATURES EVOLVED. THE KAMPILIAN IS A LARGER MORE FIERCE VERSION OF THE BLUNT ENDED SWORDS PERHAPS FROM THE EARLIER PAGAN TRIBES SUCH AS THE BAGOBO AND TIBOLI.
THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BUT A LIKELY SCENARIO. MY USE OF PAGAN AND ANY OTHER TERMS ARE NOT INTENDED TO LOOK DOWN ON OR DISRESPECT ANYONE.

[David]

Barry, i think perhaps animistic might be a better term for these tribes than pagan, though many would certainly consider Animism a form of Paganism.
I would also like to point out that the Moros were not started by the Moors, an ethnic group they really had no contact with. It was the colonial forces of the Spanish who coined the term Moro because these people were Muslims like the Moors that they knew.
It seems obvious that the kris/kalis developed from the keris, but this came to the Moro peoples along with the influx of Islam that flowed from Indonesian states where the keris was established so i don't think to has anything to do with some chance transference from a slave taken by a Moro tribe. I believe it developed into a larger slashing sword specifically to combat the Spanish. I am not convinced that we can categorize the Moro tribes (there are 13 different ethnic groups among them) as being intrinsically more war-like than the more animistic tribes of the region. They were involved for centuries fighting off Spanish colonial domination and when Spain lost the Philippines to the USA they continued their fight for an independent state against us. While they did indeed engage in piracy and raiding of Spanish and Christian held areas it must we remembered that they were at war with these force, not necessarily trying to extend their territories as much as free them from colonial control.

[kronckew]

don't forget not all the 'moro' tribes supported the insurrection against the USA, a good proportion didn't and fought with the USA against the others.

tribal animosities taking precedence over religion and politics. pershing essentially defeated the moro insurrectionists by being more brutal and more inhumane than they were and more so than the US army had been to the native population of america in the preceding decades.

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

...more inhumane than they were and more so than the US army had been to the native population of america in the preceding decades.

I'm sure an argument could probably be made both ways on this.
And yes, different Moro tribes had very unique identities and cultures and were often not a united front.

[VANDOO]

MY MISTAKE ISLAM PROBABLY CAME TO THE PHILIPPINES FROM MALAYSIA OR SOME OTHER PLACE WHERE THE KERIS WAS PRESENT. THE MOORS, AS YOU POINT OUT WERE THERE IN NAME ONLY WHICH ARRIVED WITH THE SPANISH. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SPECULATE WHAT SORT OF WEAPONS MIGHT HAVE EVOLVED IN THE PHILIPPINES IF THE MOORS HAD COLONIZED THERE.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

I have heard lore that poisons were used on blades, but have yet to see any qualified evidence of this. Anyone have more information or verification of this?

I cannot add to this, but also find it most interesting. The lore of poison blades is known in medieval Europe and most certainly probably in many other cultures and times, but as noted, there seems to be no hard evidence of any such practice.
With poison arrows, obviously this is well confirmed, however with the potential of these failing to inflict any sort of grievous injury (unless direct hit on vital spot) the necessity of secondary threat seems well placed
With an edged weapon, especially a sword, such accent as poison seems redundant .

Is it possible that the presence of deadly elements such as arsenic, which I understand were often used in forging and etching of blades (in Borneo, Indonesia and Malaysia) might have become imbued in the lore of these weapons?

It seems in reality that these would lose or alter their properties in such processes as forging, but simply the knowledge of their presence might have led to such allusions.

I did read somewhere that some sort of 'paste' using various toxic venoms was used on blades, but again, this seems another form of psychological oriented myth.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I cannot add to this, but also find it most interesting. The lore of poison blades is known in medieval Europe and most certainly probably in many other cultures and times, but as noted, there seems to be no hard evidence of any such practice. ...
It seems in reality that these would lose or alter their properties in such processes as forging, but simply the knowledge of their presence might have led to such allusions.

I did read somewhere that some sort of 'paste' using various toxic venoms was used on blades, but again, this seems another form of psychological oriented myth.

i saw a video not all that long ago, on youtube i think, of a phillipino bladesmith forging a blade and rubbing it with crushed deadly spiders to make the blade more deadly. he said it infused the blade with spider venom, but i must assume the heat treatment afterwards would burn it all up.

edited: found it, HERE

as a side comment, even islam is not a homogeneous religion. as there are a number of sects like the sunni and shia that do not like each other very much. and others. islam does not have an overall religious leader like the catholics (the pope) and the buddhists (dalai lama). even the christian protestants have a pyramidal rank structure of bishops and arch bishops.

turkey, in the form of the ottoman empire used to provide some structure under it's sultan who was also the caliph and religious leader, but vast as it was, did not extend into lands outside the ottoman control. when it fell apart and the west imposed artificial boundaries without regard to local conditions, the seeds of the present conflicts in the region were sown, and we are forced to live with the resulting crops.

ah, well, enough politics. back to the present. at least the diversity provides us with a never ending source of differing sharp pointy things to collect.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Kronckew,
That is sort of what I had picked up in some of my reading as I followed this discussion and looked into the 'poison blade' phenomenon. It seems that this practice involved the preparation of some sort of paste using these venoms. As you note, the key properties of these substances would likely be lost chemically in the subsequent processes used in completing the work on the blades, but the perceptions become psychologically imbued.

Agreed on the notes pertaining to these religious structuring matters, which I mentioned only with respect to understanding the description of these dynamics as far as the diffusion of some weapon forms. It seems in the study of ethnographic material culture these factors often become quite important, and indeed these diversities make the study of these things most fascinating.

[Gustav]

Regarding Kampilan as a curved cutlass, just a coincidence more likely, considering the "artistic licence":

all of you surely know the picture of a Visayan Timawa or Tumao from the Boxer Codex (c.1590). Note the small signs on the blade, which remind a bit of chinese characters.