What's it?

Ian · 11th March 2005, 12:45 AM

This one has me baffled. Somehow it strikes me as Japanese, and I don't have any good reason for thinking that. It is a very well made knife with a certain simplicity and elegance to its appearance.

The scabbard is definitely Asian/SE Asian with its two-piece wooden construction and plaited rattan binding. There is a small wooden protrusion which would allow the sheath to be worn at the waist. The facing wood is well polished, while the backing is plain and unfinished.

The blade is very well forged, tapering evenly from hilt to tip. There is a narrow inserted or hardened edge, which became apparent after etching.

Any thoughts about where it came from and how old it might be? Maybe Conogre has one tucked away in his "steak knives of the world" collection.

OAL = 19.5 inches Blade =15 inches

Ian.

tom hyle · 11th March 2005, 02:44 AM

All I know about these: they are usually ID'd as Philippino and I just saw a near-identical sheath with a talibon/garab handle sticking out of it (perhaps in the Spanish Museum thread).

Bill · 11th March 2005, 02:46 AM

Luzon, post WWII, most likely 1960's

Andrew · 11th March 2005, 04:00 AM

That's an interesting knife, Ian. Several features remind me of this Thai knife of mine:

tom hyle · 11th March 2005, 05:12 AM

Why Luzon? You are familiar with the type?
The tip is similar to some Thai knives; the antler handle ones come to mind especially.

Bill · 11th March 2005, 06:26 AM

I have one exactly like it, the seller said he picked it up in Luzon in the 60's. The ferrule is a brass shell casing. It looks brand new, I quess that doesn't mean that it was made in Luzon, but I have seen at least one other on ebay that the seller was claiming it was from the PI. Could have been an import to sell to GI's.

tom hyle · 11th March 2005, 01:42 PM

I don't think I've ever seen one attributed that wasn't attributed to PI, but I've never encountered anything meaningful to back that up, either....

Ian · 11th March 2005, 01:59 PM

Bill:

Interesting that you should have been told your example came from Luzon because that is one of the last places I would expect it to have come from.

Almost everything about this knife says "not Filipino" to me. First, the blade shape is not traditional for any of the local groups in the northern, central, or southern Philippines. Second, the tang arises asymmetrically from the blade, being located near the spine, rather than centrally. Third, the hilt is unlike any that I have seen from the Philippines, and it is blind tang construction (very unusual for knives from Luzon). And lastly, the wooden sheath is much lighter in construction than the vast majority of Philippines pieces I have seen, with just a thin single rattan strip to hold it together -- not the usual sturdy Filipino construction.

It may have been collected in the Philippines but I don't think it was made there. What I have found with many Filipino attributions, especially post WWII, is that the sources are often ex-servicemen who were stationed in the Philippines (and elsewhere), and often traded with other servicemen who had traveled in the region. Can't remember how many recently made Thai dha I have seen that were said to have been brought back from the Philippines. Also, we had a long discussion a couple of years ago about Taiwanese knives and swords that turned up in the Philippines, and whether these were indigenous to parts of the Philippines (probably not).

One other thing I did not mention above.

There are lines and "X"-es marked on the spine of the blade, just in front of the ferrule, that are discernible in the close up picture of the hilt. These are reminiscent of the marks on some 20th C. Thai dha.

Of the suggestions so far, Andrew's Thai knife seems to come closest in appearance.

Ian.

Conogre · 11th March 2005, 02:44 PM

You may be correct in the Thai attribution, but honestly, I thought it was from the Philippines, primarily because I'd run across a couple like it in all of the searches trying to put some meaning to that list of words I asked about, both attributed to the Philippines, and I believe, Luzon.
That same seller had another almost identical only sans scabbard.
Unfortunately, I followed so many threads in my definition hunt that I couldn't even begin to tell you whare I saw them, other than in our old threads here and am still not much further ahead than where I began.
I can only assume the terms I asked about arose with the addition of several of our newer members from the Philippines, but was unable to find out when the nomenclature became "common usage" or how.
Mike

Bill · 11th March 2005, 05:19 PM

Ian, Agree with everything you have said. Took a closer look at mine; no markings on the spine, the sheath is glued with no ratten bindings. Tried to think of a work purpose, but can not. The hilt is large & is comfortable for my large hands; for westerners? The blade has the same degree of angle for thrusting that a kris or keris might. If it was trusted hard, hit something solid & the grip slipped, you would lose part of your index finger, not a knife for knife fighter, I think. I suppose what is so confusing about many weapons from this part of the world is so many cultures collided, so quickly. Perhaps a displaced family of knife makers set up shop by a military base. Plenty of scrape to make thier knives, not quite traditional, but something that appealed to the servicemen. One family, over 20 years or so, could put hundreds of these into circulation for us to ponder over.

Justin · 11th March 2005, 05:48 PM

I think this is South East Asian.The edge looks like it is either differentially hardened or maybe a seperate piece of steel inlayed and welded in.The shape of the blade looks like a blown up version of those Thai tourist knives that usually have the odd shaped antler hilts.

11th March 2005, 12:45 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Oriental, Asian Knife -- What's it? This one has me baffled. Somehow it strikes me as Japanese, and I don't have any good reason for thinking that. It is a very well made knife with a certain simplicity and elegance to its appearance. The scabbard is definitely Asian/SE Asian with its two-piece wooden construction and plaited rattan binding. There is a small wooden protrusion which would allow the sheath to be worn at the waist. The facing wood is well polished, while the backing is plain and unfinished. The blade is very well forged, tapering evenly from hilt to tip. There is a narrow inserted or hardened edge, which became apparent after etching. Any thoughts about where it came from and how old it might be? Maybe Conogre has one tucked away in his "steak knives of the world" collection. OAL = 19.5 inches Blade =15 inches Ian. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 11th March 2005 at 01:58 AM.

11th March 2005, 04:00 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	That's an interesting knife, Ian. Several features remind me of this Thai knife of mine: Attached Images

11th March 2005, 01:59 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Bill: Interesting that you should have been told your example came from Luzon because that is one of the last places I would expect it to have come from. Almost everything about this knife says "not Filipino" to me. First, the blade shape is not traditional for any of the local groups in the northern, central, or southern Philippines. Second, the tang arises asymmetrically from the blade, being located near the spine, rather than centrally. Third, the hilt is unlike any that I have seen from the Philippines, and it is blind tang construction (very unusual for knives from Luzon). And lastly, the wooden sheath is much lighter in construction than the vast majority of Philippines pieces I have seen, with just a thin single rattan strip to hold it together -- not the usual sturdy Filipino construction. It may have been collected in the Philippines but I don't think it was made there. What I have found with many Filipino attributions, especially post WWII, is that the sources are often ex-servicemen who were stationed in the Philippines (and elsewhere), and often traded with other servicemen who had traveled in the region. Can't remember how many recently made Thai dha I have seen that were said to have been brought back from the Philippines. Also, we had a long discussion a couple of years ago about Taiwanese knives and swords that turned up in the Philippines, and whether these were indigenous to parts of the Philippines (probably not). One other thing I did not mention above. There are lines and "X"-es marked on the spine of the blade, just in front of the ferrule, that are discernible in the close up picture of the hilt. These are reminiscent of the marks on some 20th C. Thai dha. Of the suggestions so far, Andrew's Thai knife seems to come closest in appearance. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 11th March 2005 at 02:20 PM.

11th March 2005, 02:44 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	All I know about these: they are usually ID'd as Philippino and I just saw a near-identical sheath with a talibon/garab handle sticking out of it (perhaps in the Spanish Museum thread).

11th March 2005, 02:46 AM	#3
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Luzon, post WWII, most likely 1960's

11th March 2005, 05:12 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Why Luzon? You are familiar with the type? The tip is similar to some Thai knives; the antler handle ones come to mind especially.

11th March 2005, 06:26 AM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I have one exactly like it, the seller said he picked it up in Luzon in the 60's. The ferrule is a brass shell casing. It looks brand new, I quess that doesn't mean that it was made in Luzon, but I have seen at least one other on ebay that the seller was claiming it was from the PI. Could have been an import to sell to GI's.

11th March 2005, 01:42 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I don't think I've ever seen one attributed that wasn't attributed to PI, but I've never encountered anything meaningful to back that up, either....

11th March 2005, 02:44 PM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	You may be correct in the Thai attribution, but honestly, I thought it was from the Philippines, primarily because I'd run across a couple like it in all of the searches trying to put some meaning to that list of words I asked about, both attributed to the Philippines, and I believe, Luzon. That same seller had another almost identical only sans scabbard. Unfortunately, I followed so many threads in my definition hunt that I couldn't even begin to tell you whare I saw them, other than in our old threads here and am still not much further ahead than where I began. I can only assume the terms I asked about arose with the addition of several of our newer members from the Philippines, but was unable to find out when the nomenclature became "common usage" or how. Mike

11th March 2005, 05:19 PM	#10
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Ian, Agree with everything you have said. Took a closer look at mine; no markings on the spine, the sheath is glued with no ratten bindings. Tried to think of a work purpose, but can not. The hilt is large & is comfortable for my large hands; for westerners? The blade has the same degree of angle for thrusting that a kris or keris might. If it was trusted hard, hit something solid & the grip slipped, you would lose part of your index finger, not a knife for knife fighter, I think. I suppose what is so confusing about many weapons from this part of the world is so many cultures collided, so quickly. Perhaps a displaced family of knife makers set up shop by a military base. Plenty of scrape to make thier knives, not quite traditional, but something that appealed to the servicemen. One family, over 20 years or so, could put hundreds of these into circulation for us to ponder over.

11th March 2005, 05:48 PM	#11
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	I think this is South East Asian.The edge looks like it is either differentially hardened or maybe a seperate piece of steel inlayed and welded in.The shape of the blade looks like a blown up version of those Thai tourist knives that usually have the odd shaped antler hilts.