Poisoned Blades: Fact and Fiction

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2009, 01:34 PM

"...And, for that purpose, I'll anoint my sword...
...that if I gall him slightly,
It may be death".
"Hamlet" iv, vii, Shakespeare
In this classic reference, set in the late Middle Ages, but written of course in Elizabethan parlance, Laertes is to poison the tip of his rapier to insure that even a wound would prove fatal to the prince, Hamlet. Using this vehicle, the drama and irony is emplaced with both dying from the poisoned blade.

Wondering what type of poison might have been employed, it is suggested that possibly aconite (wolfsbane) known from Roman times and sometimes used in Europe on arrows may have been the choice ("Murder, Magic and Medicine", James Mann, N.Y. 1992).

Apparantly Prince Edward of England (1239-1307) was wounded by an assassin wielding a poisoned blade, and was saved by his wife who is said to have sucked the poison from the wound. The assassins, masters of poisons, and known to poison blades, were certainly feared, and the victims would have done well to have been dispatched by fatal thrust rather than the painful lingering from poisoned wound.

In an online reference by Dirk H. Breiding of the Metropolitan Museum of Art Department of Arms and Armour, he notes that although poisoned blades in Indian weapons were known, incidents in Renaissance Europe seemed rare. The perforations in blades often considered by observers to have been so placed to hold poisons were typically aesthetic arrangements of the artisans skill, and to lighten the blade. It is suggested that these perforations are typically close to the hilt, not further toward the contact points of the blade where dispensation of poison would be expected.

The Indian blade suggestion is supported somewhat by the interesting note by Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (15.17, a Tanjore katar, Metropolitan Museum N.Y. item #36.25.1011) In this reference,describing the cobra often found on these hilts close to the forte, ostensibly as often the case, to prevent the user from evil unleashed by the blades violent use, sudden death, and possible association to a poisoned blade.

We know that poisons were often used in many ethnographic tribal cultures on arrows, and that in many cultures even from ancient times, there was a profound fear of poisoning. It seems often the properties believed imbued in materials used for the hilts of edged weapons were specifically chosen for thier value as protection against poisons.

I am wondering just how prevalent the possibility of actual use of poison on blades might have been, or was it a popularized myth, perpetuated by literature and legend in Medieval and Renaissance Europe?

If there was such use, what poisons might have been used, and could they have derived from those discovered in tribal cultures in colonial regions as European explorers ventured into these places? If used in such manner on blades, how effective would what would seem a mimimal dose really be?

I have often thought of this in references to certain weapons suggesting poison on blades, and the use of poison arrows, which is of course widely known. I would really like to explore the plausibility of this interesting aspect of arms used in historical times.

All best regards,
Jim

kisak · 19th July 2009, 03:46 PM

It seems to me that many poisons would be rather slow acting in a fight, ie when compared to stabbing someone through the jugular, especially as it would appear that the amount administered by a poisoned blade might be rather on the small side. As such the utility of poisoned blades might be debatable, as odds are you would have to defeat your opponent "normally" to ensure that he didn't cut you down before the poison did what it was supposed to, and if you can do that, then making sure your opponent is dead good and proper (without poison) might not be too hard.

Though for an assassin, who might focus more on the death of his opponent than on his own life, a bit of poison could improve is odds of success a bit. And there's always the possibility of people ding things not for the effect they would get, but for the effect they hoped to get.

On the other hand, we humans often seem to fear the silent killers the most. Poison, disease, and nowadays radiation can have a very powerful psychological impact. Perhaps it's a feeling of helplessness when confronted with such? A bear is something you can at least try to run away from, or fight off, but when it' something you can't see, things get harder. This in turn makes these phenomena very fitting for stories, legends, myths, rumours and superstition, allowing things like poisoned daggers to have their place in culture, even if they might not have seen any real use.

As for which poisons to use, my guess is that fat-soluble ones would be the easiest to work with. Dissolved in oil or fat they would be relatively easy to apply to a blade, and would stay reasonably ready. A water-soluble one on the other hand might dry up on the blade, and to poison an opponent the blade would then need to stay in him while the poison dissolved again.

Now, as most of these thoughts are based on the assumption that poisoned blades were relatively rare, I'm pretty much just waiting for someone to provide a long list of such being used in medieval and renaissance Europe...

fearn · 19th July 2009, 07:02 PM

Hi Kisak,

Check out Wikipedia's History of Poisons.

It's just about what you'd expect: aconite (wolfsbane) hemlock, arsenic, ground glass (hard on intestines), bitter almond (cyanide), yew, etc. The usual suspects.

Of these, only the cyanide would work fast enough (maybe!) to kill during a fight. So long as the blade transferred a lot of cyanide (think several pill's worth) and the fight went on for long enough to get the stuff throughout the victim's body.

However, that's kind of not the point, as far as I can tell. The point is that the person stabbed was certain to die. I agree with you that poisons are typically too slow-acting to be some sort of instant-death in a fight. Even today, the only poisons I can think of that are fast-acting enough to stop a fight are military-grade nerve agents, and that's not something to be used in a duel.

Bottom line is that, while poisons were certainly used in the Renaissance, I think the Hamlet scene had a certain amount of dramatic effect.

Best,

F

VANDOO · 20th July 2009, 03:37 PM

POSIONS WERE CERTIANLY USED IN EUROPEAN COURTS AND WERE MORE FREQUENTLY USED IN ORIENTAL COURTS BUT WERE USUALLY ADMINISTERED IN FOOD ,DRINKS OR IN A PERSONS CLOTHES OR BED. MOST OF THE TIME THE POSIONER INTENDED TO LIVE AND BENNIFIT FROM THE DEATH AND SOME POOR UNKNOWING SERVANT USUALLY TOOK THE BLAME AND WAS KILLED.

ON THE TRIBAL LEVEL WITCH DOCTORS OR SHAMEN SOMETIMES USED POISONS TO REMOVE A RIVAL OR SOMEONE WHO HAD INSULTED THEM. THAT ALSO INCREASED THEIR POWER BY MAKEING THE PEOPLE FEAR THEM. POSIONED DEFENSES AROUND VILLAGES HAVE BEEN USED FOR A LONG TIME THE PUNJI STAKE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE IT IS AND WAS USED IN MODERN TIMES AND IS THE SAME NOW AS IT WAS IN THE DISTANT PAST.

AS TO ITS USE ON A BLADE THE ONLY SECNARIOS I CAN THINK OF ARE.
IF AN ASSASIN OR A PERSON WAS TRYING TO KILL A PERSON FOR REVENGE WHO WAS WELL GAURDED OR THAT HE COULD NEVER DEFEAT IN BATTLE AND HE WOULD SURELY BE KILLED. THEN A WEAPON WITH POSION WOULD BE OF MORE USE, ALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IS WOUND YOUR VICTIM AND YOU WOULD AT LEAST HAVE EITHER DONE YOUR JOB OR GOTTEN YOUR REVENGE ON THEM THRU THE POISON. IT WOULD ALSO BE A GOOD IDEA TO CUT YOURSELF SO YOU COULD NOT BE TORTURED FOR VERY LONG.
BUT FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT A PROJECTILE WEAPON, TRAP OR ADMINISTERED AS MENTIONED ABOVE IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH IS BEST.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2009, 10:29 PM

Thanks so much for the excellent responses guys! as always wonderfully dimensional perspective and ideas. After reading these my curiosity compels me further and I found the following which speaks to the notes on the fear of poisoning as well as which might have been used.

From "The Advance and the Poisoners of Elizabethan Tragedy"
Fredson Bowers
In 'Journal of English and Germanic Philology' 36, (1937) p.491-504

Referenced in "Scandal of Images" Margaret A.Tassi (2005) in notes, p.231

Bowers discusses the use of contact poisons, and that the 'king of Renaissance poisons' was certainly arsenic, often obtained in the form of 'ratsbane' and the ingenious devices for dispensation such as the poisoned knife blade or often ring.
"...regarding Elizabethan fear of poisons he cites Sir Edward Coke, who wrote in 1602 that poison, 'as hath been said, the most horrible and fearful to the nature of man'."

It seems that this clearly much networked reference from the 1937 work as well as reference to the quote from 1602, suggests that poisoning in weapons, though an element of drama , was indeed probably a reality of some presence.

Interesting observations and descriptions concerning the physiological aspects of poisons and how they might have manifested in use, I think we have a pretty good forensics panel here!! Outstanding, compelling, and indeed a bit scary

I think the fears were absolutely well placed.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 21st July 2009, 09:55 PM

Intresting subject.
I find myself thinking of the 'most famous' example of using a blade as a delivery system for poison, the dagger with the serpent on one side and the cutting of the apple. I believe this would be an effective way of administering a lethal dose as long as the 'assasiin' was careful in the cutting of course.
Essentially I can easily believe that a blade could effectively administer poison, but unless the substance was something akin to essence of poison arrow frog, I cant see even a fairly good cut influenceing a fight. And a really deep thrust should do its own work.
However! As a secondary effect, its a different matter.
If fast acting is not a factor, then poisoned traps can be very effective.
How about 'punji sticks'?
I find myself thinking of the narrow holes, calf deep with bamboo sticks at 45 degrees so that an emeny impales his leg when pulling it out.
Didn't the Viet-Cong smear them with faeces, which would guarantee the need for immediate evac and medical treatment to avoid very unpleasant infection?
In fact isn't the term 'punji stick' an old one from India?
I do realise sharpened bambo is not exactly a blade, but the idea might take the thread in a new direction.

19th July 2009, 01:34 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Poisoned Blades: Fact and Fiction "...And, for that purpose, I'll anoint my sword... ...that if I gall him slightly, It may be death". "Hamlet" iv, vii, Shakespeare In this classic reference, set in the late Middle Ages, but written of course in Elizabethan parlance, Laertes is to poison the tip of his rapier to insure that even a wound would prove fatal to the prince, Hamlet. Using this vehicle, the drama and irony is emplaced with both dying from the poisoned blade. Wondering what type of poison might have been employed, it is suggested that possibly aconite (wolfsbane) known from Roman times and sometimes used in Europe on arrows may have been the choice ("Murder, Magic and Medicine", James Mann, N.Y. 1992). Apparantly Prince Edward of England (1239-1307) was wounded by an assassin wielding a poisoned blade, and was saved by his wife who is said to have sucked the poison from the wound. The assassins, masters of poisons, and known to poison blades, were certainly feared, and the victims would have done well to have been dispatched by fatal thrust rather than the painful lingering from poisoned wound. In an online reference by Dirk H. Breiding of the Metropolitan Museum of Art Department of Arms and Armour, he notes that although poisoned blades in Indian weapons were known, incidents in Renaissance Europe seemed rare. The perforations in blades often considered by observers to have been so placed to hold poisons were typically aesthetic arrangements of the artisans skill, and to lighten the blade. It is suggested that these perforations are typically close to the hilt, not further toward the contact points of the blade where dispensation of poison would be expected. The Indian blade suggestion is supported somewhat by the interesting note by Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (15.17, a Tanjore katar, Metropolitan Museum N.Y. item #36.25.1011) In this reference,describing the cobra often found on these hilts close to the forte, ostensibly as often the case, to prevent the user from evil unleashed by the blades violent use, sudden death, and possible association to a poisoned blade. We know that poisons were often used in many ethnographic tribal cultures on arrows, and that in many cultures even from ancient times, there was a profound fear of poisoning. It seems often the properties believed imbued in materials used for the hilts of edged weapons were specifically chosen for thier value as protection against poisons. I am wondering just how prevalent the possibility of actual use of poison on blades might have been, or was it a popularized myth, perpetuated by literature and legend in Medieval and Renaissance Europe? If there was such use, what poisons might have been used, and could they have derived from those discovered in tribal cultures in colonial regions as European explorers ventured into these places? If used in such manner on blades, how effective would what would seem a mimimal dose really be? I have often thought of this in references to certain weapons suggesting poison on blades, and the use of poison arrows, which is of course widely known. I would really like to explore the plausibility of this interesting aspect of arms used in historical times. All best regards, Jim

19th July 2009, 03:46 PM	#2
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	It seems to me that many poisons would be rather slow acting in a fight, ie when compared to stabbing someone through the jugular, especially as it would appear that the amount administered by a poisoned blade might be rather on the small side. As such the utility of poisoned blades might be debatable, as odds are you would have to defeat your opponent "normally" to ensure that he didn't cut you down before the poison did what it was supposed to, and if you can do that, then making sure your opponent is dead good and proper (without poison) might not be too hard. Though for an assassin, who might focus more on the death of his opponent than on his own life, a bit of poison could improve is odds of success a bit. And there's always the possibility of people ding things not for the effect they would get, but for the effect they hoped to get. On the other hand, we humans often seem to fear the silent killers the most. Poison, disease, and nowadays radiation can have a very powerful psychological impact. Perhaps it's a feeling of helplessness when confronted with such? A bear is something you can at least try to run away from, or fight off, but when it' something you can't see, things get harder. This in turn makes these phenomena very fitting for stories, legends, myths, rumours and superstition, allowing things like poisoned daggers to have their place in culture, even if they might not have seen any real use. As for which poisons to use, my guess is that fat-soluble ones would be the easiest to work with. Dissolved in oil or fat they would be relatively easy to apply to a blade, and would stay reasonably ready. A water-soluble one on the other hand might dry up on the blade, and to poison an opponent the blade would then need to stay in him while the poison dissolved again. Now, as most of these thoughts are based on the assumption that poisoned blades were relatively rare, I'm pretty much just waiting for someone to provide a long list of such being used in medieval and renaissance Europe...

19th July 2009, 07:02 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Kisak, Check out Wikipedia's History of Poisons. It's just about what you'd expect: aconite (wolfsbane) hemlock, arsenic, ground glass (hard on intestines), bitter almond (cyanide), yew, etc. The usual suspects. Of these, only the cyanide would work fast enough (maybe!) to kill during a fight. So long as the blade transferred a lot of cyanide (think several pill's worth) and the fight went on for long enough to get the stuff throughout the victim's body. However, that's kind of not the point, as far as I can tell. The point is that the person stabbed was certain to die. I agree with you that poisons are typically too slow-acting to be some sort of instant-death in a fight. Even today, the only poisons I can think of that are fast-acting enough to stop a fight are military-grade nerve agents, and that's not something to be used in a duel. Bottom line is that, while poisons were certainly used in the Renaissance, I think the Hamlet scene had a certain amount of dramatic effect. Best, F

20th July 2009, 03:37 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	POSIONS WERE CERTIANLY USED IN EUROPEAN COURTS AND WERE MORE FREQUENTLY USED IN ORIENTAL COURTS BUT WERE USUALLY ADMINISTERED IN FOOD ,DRINKS OR IN A PERSONS CLOTHES OR BED. MOST OF THE TIME THE POSIONER INTENDED TO LIVE AND BENNIFIT FROM THE DEATH AND SOME POOR UNKNOWING SERVANT USUALLY TOOK THE BLAME AND WAS KILLED. ON THE TRIBAL LEVEL WITCH DOCTORS OR SHAMEN SOMETIMES USED POISONS TO REMOVE A RIVAL OR SOMEONE WHO HAD INSULTED THEM. THAT ALSO INCREASED THEIR POWER BY MAKEING THE PEOPLE FEAR THEM. POSIONED DEFENSES AROUND VILLAGES HAVE BEEN USED FOR A LONG TIME THE PUNJI STAKE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE IT IS AND WAS USED IN MODERN TIMES AND IS THE SAME NOW AS IT WAS IN THE DISTANT PAST. AS TO ITS USE ON A BLADE THE ONLY SECNARIOS I CAN THINK OF ARE. IF AN ASSASIN OR A PERSON WAS TRYING TO KILL A PERSON FOR REVENGE WHO WAS WELL GAURDED OR THAT HE COULD NEVER DEFEAT IN BATTLE AND HE WOULD SURELY BE KILLED. THEN A WEAPON WITH POSION WOULD BE OF MORE USE, ALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IS WOUND YOUR VICTIM AND YOU WOULD AT LEAST HAVE EITHER DONE YOUR JOB OR GOTTEN YOUR REVENGE ON THEM THRU THE POISON. IT WOULD ALSO BE A GOOD IDEA TO CUT YOURSELF SO YOU COULD NOT BE TORTURED FOR VERY LONG. BUT FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT A PROJECTILE WEAPON, TRAP OR ADMINISTERED AS MENTIONED ABOVE IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH IS BEST.

20th July 2009, 10:29 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Thanks so much for the excellent responses guys! as always wonderfully dimensional perspective and ideas. After reading these my curiosity compels me further and I found the following which speaks to the notes on the fear of poisoning as well as which might have been used. From "The Advance and the Poisoners of Elizabethan Tragedy" Fredson Bowers In 'Journal of English and Germanic Philology' 36, (1937) p.491-504 Referenced in "Scandal of Images" Margaret A.Tassi (2005) in notes, p.231 Bowers discusses the use of contact poisons, and that the 'king of Renaissance poisons' was certainly arsenic, often obtained in the form of 'ratsbane' and the ingenious devices for dispensation such as the poisoned knife blade or often ring. "...regarding Elizabethan fear of poisons he cites Sir Edward Coke, who wrote in 1602 that poison, 'as hath been said, the most horrible and fearful to the nature of man'." It seems that this clearly much networked reference from the 1937 work as well as reference to the quote from 1602, suggests that poisoning in weapons, though an element of drama , was indeed probably a reality of some presence. Interesting observations and descriptions concerning the physiological aspects of poisons and how they might have manifested in use, I think we have a pretty good forensics panel here!! Outstanding, compelling, and indeed a bit scary I think the fears were absolutely well placed. All best regards, Jim

21st July 2009, 09:55 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Intresting subject. I find myself thinking of the 'most famous' example of using a blade as a delivery system for poison, the dagger with the serpent on one side and the cutting of the apple. I believe this would be an effective way of administering a lethal dose as long as the 'assasiin' was careful in the cutting of course. Essentially I can easily believe that a blade could effectively administer poison, but unless the substance was something akin to essence of poison arrow frog, I cant see even a fairly good cut influenceing a fight. And a really deep thrust should do its own work. However! As a secondary effect, its a different matter. If fast acting is not a factor, then poisoned traps can be very effective. How about 'punji sticks'? I find myself thinking of the narrow holes, calf deep with bamboo sticks at 45 degrees so that an emeny impales his leg when pulling it out. Didn't the Viet-Cong smear them with faeces, which would guarantee the need for immediate evac and medical treatment to avoid very unpleasant infection? In fact isn't the term 'punji stick' an old one from India? I do realise sharpened bambo is not exactly a blade, but the idea might take the thread in a new direction.