Sword Identification?

piratelady · 19th June 2024, 09:09 PM

Hello; I was told this sword is from the 18th century. I think any of the markings maybe too pitted to see now. The handle appears to be wood as it has some small gouges in it. The blade is 24 inches or 62cm. There also appears to be the numbers 18 or 13 on the top of the handle.

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2024, 12:25 AM

Interesting saber, thank you for posting it here.
Its really hard to tell material from photos, while this appears wood, it might be horn.
The blade could very well be late 18th c. European, but the sword in its ersatz hilting seems of course very much later, into early 20th c. Its very common for old European blades circulating in colonial regions to be remounted numerous times.

The hilt is a common stirrup hilt type used by many nations in varying degree so hard to identify, but it reminds me of an Ethiopian 'gurade' in a sense and of early 20th c. Obviously the Lion of Judah is absent on this example, but the character of the hilt seems similar.
Welcome to the forum.....great handle!

fernando · 20th June 2024, 10:27 AM

Welcome to the forum, Piratelady

. How long is the blade ?

piratelady · 20th June 2024, 06:11 PM

Hello fernando, the blade is 24 inches. I am almost positive the handle is wood. It has some small gouges in it that a horn would not have.

Radboud · 20th June 2024, 10:07 PM

As Jim has aluded to, this is a sword is a composition of (some) original parts from different swords.

The hilt looks like it came from a German new model artillery sabre while the blade at first glance looks to be French in style, possibly mid 19th Cent. Without markings and blade diamensions it's difficult to be sure, but it looks similar to the types of blades seen on the French m1845 infantry officers sword.

See if you can see any reminants of engraving on the spine of the blade close to the hilt.

The hilt is missing the backstrap, grip tabs and pommel cap that would have gone with that guard and the wood grips are modern replacements. Looking at how the blade is attached to the hilt, and given the likely newer age of the parts, I would judge this to be a more recent marriage of parts, than a colonial era eratz sword.

Norman McCormick · 21st June 2024, 03:27 PM

Hi,
To my mind this is surely a late 18thC early 19thC hanger style blade. The blade length and the larger fuller terminating at the point, to me at least, are sure fire indicators of this type. The M1845 French infantry sword has a quill point style blade which is very different from the posters blade. The D-guard reminds me strongly of an early Blucher sabre style hilt, see attached photo, although the portapee/sword knot slit, in the photo provided, looks smaller than in a Blucher. The grip is probably a replacement as is possibly but not definitively the guard but I think these are period alterations and not later as proposed. The numerals on the guard may be a rack number so possibly a militia or private purchase sea service concoction possibly continental European and not British as the D-guard has more of a pronounced curve than is normal on British swords. Seems to me a decent workmanlike sword.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2024, 05:07 PM

Great observations Norman!!! as always!

Im glad we are in accord on the blade, which seems 18th century European saber form recalling 'montmorency' section of latter part. Well noted on the guard, which does seem German and of the stirrup guard 'Blucher' (M1811) type. The smaller langet and as you note the portapee slot seems more to correspond to later versions of these stirrup hilts which actually were in use in the German army into WWI period, and typically 'lighter'.

With your confirmation of probable German hilt guard, I feel the potential for German East Africa assembly of these components and the wood grip, and likely in colonial period of 1880s + if indeed regionally composed.

The Ethiopian 'gurade' I posted illustrates the propensity toward European influences on native weapons in these dynamic colonial times, where often native forces served as auxiliary to the national military occupying forces.
Often in colonial situations, officers of the occupying military forces also took to specialized swords reflecting local styles joined with regulation components worn as field weapons. These cases prevailed in India where regulation hilts often had Indian or Persian blades and vice versa where many Indian swords had British blades.

These are some of the most fascinating areas of sword collecting with these anomalies being of key historic interest!

Pirate Lady, by your psuedonym, I would note, the regions of Africa which seem suggested include the areas of Comoros Islands and Madagascar where pirate activity prevailed in earlier centuries. Trade activity still active of course, as Norman mentioned, and the guard at least may have come from a maritime weapon with rack number so associated.
All speculative, but of course, fun to imagine.

kronckew · 22nd June 2024, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
... The M1845 French infantry sword has a quill point style blade which is very different from the posters blade. ...

My 1845 quill pointed Frenchy for illustration:

19th June 2024, 09:09 PM	#1
piratelady Member Join Date: May 2024 Posts: 3	Sword Identification? Hello; I was told this sword is from the 18th century. I think any of the markings maybe too pitted to see now. The handle appears to be wood as it has some small gouges in it. The blade is 24 inches or 62cm. There also appears to be the numbers 18 or 13 on the top of the handle. Attached Images Last edited by piratelady; 20th June 2024 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Adding info

20th June 2024, 12:25 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Interesting saber, thank you for posting it here. Its really hard to tell material from photos, while this appears wood, it might be horn. The blade could very well be late 18th c. European, but the sword in its ersatz hilting seems of course very much later, into early 20th c. Its very common for old European blades circulating in colonial regions to be remounted numerous times. The hilt is a common stirrup hilt type used by many nations in varying degree so hard to identify, but it reminds me of an Ethiopian 'gurade' in a sense and of early 20th c. Obviously the Lion of Judah is absent on this example, but the character of the hilt seems similar. Welcome to the forum.....great handle! Attached Images

21st June 2024, 03:27 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, To my mind this is surely a late 18thC early 19thC hanger style blade. The blade length and the larger fuller terminating at the point, to me at least, are sure fire indicators of this type. The M1845 French infantry sword has a quill point style blade which is very different from the posters blade. The D-guard reminds me strongly of an early Blucher sabre style hilt, see attached photo, although the portapee/sword knot slit, in the photo provided, looks smaller than in a Blucher. The grip is probably a replacement as is possibly but not definitively the guard but I think these are period alterations and not later as proposed. The numerals on the guard may be a rack number so possibly a militia or private purchase sea service concoction possibly continental European and not British as the D-guard has more of a pronounced curve than is normal on British swords. Seems to me a decent workmanlike sword. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 21st June 2024 at 03:50 PM.

21st June 2024, 05:07 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Great observations Norman!!! as always! Im glad we are in accord on the blade, which seems 18th century European saber form recalling 'montmorency' section of latter part. Well noted on the guard, which does seem German and of the stirrup guard 'Blucher' (M1811) type. The smaller langet and as you note the portapee slot seems more to correspond to later versions of these stirrup hilts which actually were in use in the German army into WWI period, and typically 'lighter'. With your confirmation of probable German hilt guard, I feel the potential for German East Africa assembly of these components and the wood grip, and likely in colonial period of 1880s + if indeed regionally composed. The Ethiopian 'gurade' I posted illustrates the propensity toward European influences on native weapons in these dynamic colonial times, where often native forces served as auxiliary to the national military occupying forces. Often in colonial situations, officers of the occupying military forces also took to specialized swords reflecting local styles joined with regulation components worn as field weapons. These cases prevailed in India where regulation hilts often had Indian or Persian blades and vice versa where many Indian swords had British blades. These are some of the most fascinating areas of sword collecting with these anomalies being of key historic interest! Pirate Lady, by your psuedonym, I would note, the regions of Africa which seem suggested include the areas of Comoros Islands and Madagascar where pirate activity prevailed in earlier centuries. Trade activity still active of course, as Norman mentioned, and the guard at least may have come from a maritime weapon with rack number so associated. All speculative, but of course, fun to imagine. Attached Images

20th June 2024, 10:27 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Piratelady . How long is the blade ?

20th June 2024, 06:11 PM	#4
piratelady Member Join Date: May 2024 Posts: 3	Hello fernando, the blade is 24 inches. I am almost positive the handle is wood. It has some small gouges in it that a horn would not have.

20th June 2024, 10:07 PM	#5
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	As Jim has aluded to, this is a sword is a composition of (some) original parts from different swords. The hilt looks like it came from a German new model artillery sabre while the blade at first glance looks to be French in style, possibly mid 19th Cent. Without markings and blade diamensions it's difficult to be sure, but it looks similar to the types of blades seen on the French m1845 infantry officers sword. See if you can see any reminants of engraving on the spine of the blade close to the hilt. The hilt is missing the backstrap, grip tabs and pommel cap that would have gone with that guard and the wood grips are modern replacements. Looking at how the blade is attached to the hilt, and given the likely newer age of the parts, I would judge this to be a more recent marriage of parts, than a colonial era eratz sword.