CLOISONNE PRIMER FLASK AND BULLET BOX

kahnjar1 · 14th August 2016, 04:58 AM

Just received these two nice pieces. I suspect they are North African.
The flask measures 13cm across the U. The bullet box is 6cm wide, 7.5cm tall and 2.5cm thick. The lid is NOT hinged but slides to the side for opening.
Unfortunately one of the "tassles" is missing but other than that both items are in great condition with no enamel missing or cracked.
The base metal of both items appears to be silver, as neither are magnetic.
Comments welcome.
Stu

Kubur · 14th August 2016, 08:31 AM

Hi Stu,

Very nice objects.
The chain is old and IMHO they are from 1890-1920.
I think the box demonstrates clearly that most of the so-called Koran boxes are in fact bullet boxes. The enamel work and the powder horn are probably Moroccans. Now the welded suspension rings of the powder horn make me think that both were sold as companions and they are decorative objects.

Best,
Kubur

ward · 14th August 2016, 05:32 PM

That makes little sense. Workshops made different items with various applications. They make what sells. I have a Koran box with similar work

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th August 2016, 10:18 PM

This is a good question which is half answered as one is the gunpowder flask and the almost square item is ?
Certainly North Africa either Morocco and or Algeria. Note that clossone was more common in in Algeria and also applied to the Hilt of the Algerian Nimcha.
I will stick up some other examples in a moment...

There are examples at Library and the web illustrates many at https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...e&fr=chr-yo_gc

The question is more interesting because some countries have Quran Holders...and some look like they could be for bullets or oil... but that the two ought not to be mixed up. It should be understood that what is meant as a Quran holder means a small Quran is meant to be contained inside...in miniature. On the other hand some boxes are for a note either from the Quran or a note of some important issue ...e.g. water rights / building rights/ or something to be kept safe ...most of the time they may be empty. This is called a Hirz...and can be seen in the group photo below (Omani) They are usually sealed with pitch.

A decorated Quran box holder can be decorated in a number of ways including geometrical art or inscribed with words from the Quran and in Morocco or Algeria some are covered in Clossonne..Other examples include those with magic squares. Quran holders are not usually sealed.

I would expect to see other decoration on a bullet container or grease box. Not withstanding this it is possible that boxes for the tourist market could appear with no rhyme or reason to what they are decorated with...although even that seems doubtful to me....

rickystl · 15th August 2016, 02:24 AM

Hi Stu.

Very nice matched pieces. And appear in good condition. Interesting the sliding cover.

Rick

kahnjar1 · 15th August 2016, 03:43 AM

Hi Rick,
Both in excellent condition apart from one "tassle" missing from the box. I should add that both came together from the same source.
As far as the box is concerned it could be either a bullet box or Quran holder. Appears from above comments that there is a differing opinion on this, but that is what the Forum discussions are about.......
Stu

Kubur · 15th August 2016, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Note that clossone was more common in in Algeria and also applied to the Hilt of the Algerian Nimcha.

Hi Ibrahiim,

Do you have some photos of this Algerian nimcha with cloisonne?
I'm curious to see that.
Thanks

Kubur

ward · 15th August 2016, 10:39 PM

Here is a similar one.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th August 2016, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Ibrahiim,

Do you have some photos of this Algerian nimcha with cloisonne?
I'm curious to see that.
Thanks

Kubur

I have seen the very heavily clossoned Algerian Hilt and I will dig it out...Meanwhile something is wrong with the search function on Forum...or it could be my computer...I trailed all the way through about 14 pages of Library and somehow came up on BAT HILTS # 21 as~

The Nimcha. The Italian and/or Venetian sword appears as the origin of species and can be seen transmitted along the North African Mediterranean Coast in particular cloisonne versions in Algeria and other examples of a similar theme as far west as Morocco in the Mediterranean. It seems to have been a preferred weapon of the Barbary Coast ~ Pirates.
A few swords somehow arrived in England early in the 16thC though on long English blades etc etc

I place plate 32 by Buttin for interest.

The write up on the gilded sword below indicates Moroccan although I suggest it is Algerian as they were very fond of Cloisonne which you can see at the scabbard..and may also have been also on the hilt but degraded...I will search for a fully cloisonne hilt..

Meanwhile a few other boxes... are these Quran or bullet boxes...? The Islamic geometry indicates Quranic rather than for bullets. Excellent picture above by Ward and the logical conclusion that the long sliding lid is for a miniature Quran not for bullets...and illustrates a miniature Quran carried as a Talisman. (From an Arabic word EXPANDED UPON AS ~ Origin Mid 17th century: based on Arabic ṭilsam, apparently from an alteration of late Greek telesma 'completion, religious rite', from telein 'complete, perform a rite', from telos 'result, end'.).

I added a few Algerian Flyssa which although often adorned with red floor wax as a cheap way of lookalike Cloisonne ...added for interest.

colin henshaw · 20th August 2016, 01:27 PM

From the rather low quality of workmanship, I would say these are quite recent bazaar or decorative pieces made for sale. Coincidentally, I bought a "Hand of Fatima" pendant, as a gift, in Portobello Market just a couple of weeks ago, of very similar work...

14th August 2016, 04:58 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	CLOISONNE PRIMER FLASK AND BULLET BOX Just received these two nice pieces. I suspect they are North African. The flask measures 13cm across the U. The bullet box is 6cm wide, 7.5cm tall and 2.5cm thick. The lid is NOT hinged but slides to the side for opening. Unfortunately one of the "tassles" is missing but other than that both items are in great condition with no enamel missing or cracked. The base metal of both items appears to be silver, as neither are magnetic. Comments welcome. Stu Attached Images

14th August 2016, 05:32 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	koran box That makes little sense. Workshops made different items with various applications. They make what sells. I have a Koran box with similar work

14th August 2016, 10:18 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	This is a good question which is half answered as one is the gunpowder flask and the almost square item is ? Certainly North Africa either Morocco and or Algeria. Note that clossone was more common in in Algeria and also applied to the Hilt of the Algerian Nimcha. I will stick up some other examples in a moment... There are examples at Library and the web illustrates many at https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...e&fr=chr-yo_gc The question is more interesting because some countries have Quran Holders...and some look like they could be for bullets or oil... but that the two ought not to be mixed up. It should be understood that what is meant as a Quran holder means a small Quran is meant to be contained inside...in miniature. On the other hand some boxes are for a note either from the Quran or a note of some important issue ...e.g. water rights / building rights/ or something to be kept safe ...most of the time they may be empty. This is called a Hirz...and can be seen in the group photo below (Omani) They are usually sealed with pitch. A decorated Quran box holder can be decorated in a number of ways including geometrical art or inscribed with words from the Quran and in Morocco or Algeria some are covered in Clossonne..Other examples include those with magic squares. Quran holders are not usually sealed. I would expect to see other decoration on a bullet container or grease box. Not withstanding this it is possible that boxes for the tourist market could appear with no rhyme or reason to what they are decorated with...although even that seems doubtful to me.... Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 14th August 2016 at 11:38 PM.

15th August 2016, 10:39 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	koran Here is a similar one. Attached Images

14th August 2016, 08:31 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Stu, Very nice objects. The chain is old and IMHO they are from 1890-1920. I think the box demonstrates clearly that most of the so-called Koran boxes are in fact bullet boxes. The enamel work and the powder horn are probably Moroccans. Now the welded suspension rings of the powder horn make me think that both were sold as companions and they are decorative objects. Best, Kubur

15th August 2016, 02:24 AM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Stu. Very nice matched pieces. And appear in good condition. Interesting the sliding cover. Rick

15th August 2016, 03:43 AM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Hi Rick, Both in excellent condition apart from one "tassle" missing from the box. I should add that both came together from the same source. As far as the box is concerned it could be either a bullet box or Quran holder. Appears from above comments that there is a differing opinion on this, but that is what the Forum discussions are about....... Stu

20th August 2016, 01:27 PM	#10
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	From the rather low quality of workmanship, I would say these are quite recent bazaar or decorative pieces made for sale. Coincidentally, I bought a "Hand of Fatima" pendant, as a gift, in Portobello Market just a couple of weeks ago, of very similar work...