Mystery sabre

[Yvain]

Hi everyone !

I'm emptying my room at my parent's house and I found this big sabre that I bought when I was a teenager (most likely because it looked cool and old). It doesn't really fit my collection nowadays, but I still am curious to learn more about it. Is it just a (very) large and fancy tourist item or maybe something else ?


If I should guess, I could see some resemblance with the Vietnamese guom but not much more. It was obviously not made to be used : extremely heavy and unbalanced, the blade shows no distal taper and was most likely cut from a steel sheet, as well as the guard. The hilt and scabbard are made of white wood painted black, the fitting are made out of brass sheets soldered with tin (I think), the whole blade is acid etched with Arabian script (coranic ?) but isn't particularly neat. Overall, it looks impressive from a distance, but is rather cheaply made.



Total length is 138cm, blade length is 108cm



Any information is welcome ! My main area of knowledge is Africa and I'm quite stumped here ... Feel free to ask if you have any question or need more info ! (And sorry for the poor pictures, the house is badly lit)

[David R]

I will just say WOW and wait for the more informed to post... But yeah, a nice interesting piece whatever it is.

[Battara]

I would guess that this is a Javanese pedang. Not only does the hilt look Javanese, but it would explain the Arabic writing, possibly in Jawi.

And yes the letters were acid etched. I recognize the name "Allah" a couple of times on one side of the blade.

[mariusgmioc]

It looks Javanese to my eyes but let us see what others have to say.

[Sajen]

Sorry Jose and Marius, nothing at this sword looks Javanese to my eyes!

Regards,
Detlef

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Sorry Jose and Marius, nothing at this sword looks Javanese to my eyes!

Regards,
Detlef

Agreed. I've never seen anything from Java like this.
The only thing that I've seen similar is that some modern tourist items have acid etched Arabic on the blades (see attached examples). I believe these are made in Borneo, but occasionally you see this style on something like a modern tourist kujang.

Thanks,
Leif

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Yvain

If I should guess, I could see some resemblance with the Vietnamese guom but not much more.

I also noticed some similarities between this sword and Vietnamese items.
A significant part of the Cham people in Vietnam are Muslims. But I have never seen items from Vietnam decorated with Arabic graphics.
I know that the Chams kept in touch with the language-related Muslims of the Malay Peninsula. Perhaps it is worth looking in the sultanates of the Malay Federation? It has very strong Muslim traditions and has a long history of home to many Chinese artisans.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

I also noticed some similarities between this sword and Vietnamese items.
A significant part of the Cham people in Vietnam are Muslims. But I have never seen items from Vietnam decorated with Arabic graphics.
I know that the Chams kept in touch with the language-related Muslims of the Malay Peninsula. Perhaps it is worth looking in the sultanates of the Malay Federation? It has very strong Muslim traditions and has a long history of home to many Chinese artisans.

I agree it looks like a Viet sword decorated in the Malay world
Or a Malay blade mounted on a Guom in Vietnam / Indochine for Yvain
Viet swords were influenced by Chinese weapons, so it is normal to see some links.

[Yvain]

Well I didn't expect it to be such a riddle! All of the suggestions here were very interesting to read, thanks a lot Jim for your thoughtful comment! Kubur, I do see a lot of similarities between this sword and some guoms, mostly the overall shape.



To be perfectly honest, as I am emptying my old room and since it don't really fit my current collection (mostly african weapons), I was considering selling it, but I think I'm going to hang onto it for a little bit, at least until I have a clearer idea of what it is and why it was created!

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

I also noticed some similarities between this sword and Vietnamese items.
A significant part of the Cham people in Vietnam are Muslims. But I have never seen items from Vietnam decorated with Arabic graphics.
I know that the Chams kept in touch with the language-related Muslims of the Malay Peninsula. Perhaps it is worth looking in the sultanates of the Malay Federation? It has very strong Muslim traditions and has a long history of home to many Chinese artisans.

Good observation as re physical characteristics. The guard reminds me of an abbreviated version of the full knucklebow as seen on later (Nguyen Dynasty) sabers. Same for the scabbard profile, the tiny loose-ring for carrying mounted on the throat fitting (instead of on a separate band or sleeve as with most saber scabbards from other cultures including Chinese), and the flame motif on the chape. However, on Vietnamese officials' regalia sabers, the flames mostly appear on the dorsal side of the throat and suspension fittings; their location on the chape must be quite an impediment to wearing the saber at the belt since the little prongs can easily catch on clothing, or whatever.

The Cham people have an interesting history. Immigrating from south India early in the medieval period, establishing a flourishing civilization based on piracy and trade in central and southern Vietnam, introducing a Sanskrit based writing system to the area thanks to their Hindu faith, leaving behind some impressive architectural and sculptural achievements, and finally being conquered and (largely) dispersed through conquest by the Vietnamese in the 15th cent. Their islamicization seems to have occurred post-conquest. The remaining Cham in Vietnam are a minority which is rural and Muslim.

This saber could well be from the Cham community, in a locality somewhere in "Indochina" or Malaya because of the inscriptions and the design of the mountings. There is quite a spillover of influences in arms design in the traditional weaponry between the various parts of mainland SE Asia (not to mention foreign stylistic elements from China, Japan, and France) so trying to separate the sheep from the goats can end up being quite an exercise.

[Jim McDougall]

Philip, thank you so much for the great insights on this interesting sword, and it looks like the instincts the guys have noted here on these regional characteristics are well placed. My idea was a bit of a long shot but I placed it anyway, and your explanation is as always, outstanding and thorough.,
The best thing in these discussions is learning!
Yvain thank you for posting this!

[ausjulius]

yeah its an odd one.. id say its very recent.
"folk souvenir" like man for musli.m customers by makers of trinkets.. such cheap islamic theemed bladed "items" egypt, north african states..india, uzbekistan, iran. palestine... syria.. ect in markets and in areas sellin islamic items. many such items have a "pan islamic" feel to them.. mixes of several things that dont regularly combine. . yatagan or pala blade.. or a generic khanjar dagger shape.. but from strip steel and unsharpened.. zulfikir blade on a hunting knife shaped brazed metal handle with faux jewellery adorning it. some green or red velvet lined case for it.. lots of acid etching.

. they are ushally made by makers of metal products.

the product is definatly not a uyghur product. and.. dosnt have any features associated with them.
although the uyghurs do makealot of islamic kitch souvenirs in the same style as the uzbeks and tajiks... brazed pitch filled metal handles. false gems.. tacky 3mm thick mirror finished kilij blades with lots of islamic etching.. uyghur swords are identical to uzbek weapons on any account.

i dont know about the cham currently.. .. in cambodia the items they make were now identical to cambodian ones.. there is an youtube channel with a blacksmith making all manner of things "amazing kk daily' is the name, filmed in a cham kampong in cambodia.. as many blacksmith are cham there.but the seem to make cambodian items. ..
in vietnam they are so oppressed i really dont know what they now make. but their 19th century arms are a malay, cambodian and vietnamese mixture.. metal handled kris and such.. dahb with large curved handles and big pommels ect.. it could very well be their creation.. although nothing on the knife gives me any clues to that.
i think we need a good cham thread to discuss their arms and to investigate if and are still made .

i still think its chinese Hui.. either made in china or burma. made as a religious souvinir.
infact now im almost positive it is.. i feel some place ive seen an exact sword of the type in china some place.. but its vague in my memory.

but the flaming ying yang is a dead give away on that sheath.. as hui are fond of all these type of things..... being chinese they mix these things in with islamic themes. .

[Ren Ren]

Has anyone noticed the ornament along the edge? It seemed familiar to me and I did my little research.
This ornamental motif is called Parang Rusak - "Broken Sword" and is originally present on batik textiles in Central and North-West Java.
According to legend, it was created by Sultan Agung, ruler of Mataram in 1613-1645. He was inspired by the picture of huge sea waves crashing against a high rocky coast. This ornament has become a symbol of wisdom, fortitude and courage of the ruler, as well as responsibility to the people, ancestors and God. At that time, clothes with motif Parang Rusak could only be worn by the Sultan himself and the closest members of his family, for the rest it was a "forbidden pattern". Now, of course, direct prohibitions no longer exist, but respect is still there.