Dissimilar shells rapier... Portuguese?

midelburgo · 8th November 2019, 06:29 PM

I just got this piece. I bought it thinking it could be an officer version of the Spanish 1728 model cavalry sword, but I am not sure that is correct.

Probably the sword is earlier than what I first thought, at the end of XVIIth century. Contemporary to lots of cup hilt rapiers. I still think it is a military weapon, but it is too long for infantry use. And it is more thrust than cut.

The inscriptions say:
xx EM x ALEMANHA xx
xx EMFLENTE x RONIQUE xx
The first one sounds more oriented to Portuguese market than Spanish.

It would be nice to have more info about this RONIQUE. EM FLENTE could be a place or EMELENTE

It is 105cm long and weights 1070grams. Balance point some 5cm ahead of shell, handles easily.

kronckew · 8th November 2019, 06:39 PM

Pictures took a while to show up. Looks like a civilian rapier...cool tho.

midelburgo · 8th November 2019, 06:44 PM

To me it seems to unelaborate to be a civilian weapon at the end of XVII or beginning XVIII th centuries.

I have in my pictures collection a similar hilt piece, specially at the reinforcing pas d ane, although the blade seems similar to those of XIXth century from Couleaux. Both with no bolts or screws.

bvieira · 9th November 2019, 12:33 PM

Hello,

Not portuguese.

Regards,

BV

fernando · 9th November 2019, 01:06 PM

In fact EM ALEMANHA sounds very Portuguese; despite such wording doesn't frequently appear, it does show up now and then.
Hoever the letterings on the other face, which 'regularly' show the name of the (German) smith, or words like ESPADEIRO DEL REY, don't match with any word at all, even considering the usual misspellings.
Nothing close to those letterings appear as smith names in Viterbo's work or old exhibition catalogues.
The closest approach to EMFLENTE would be 'Em Frente' (sort of straight ahead), but unlikely, though.
You've got a riddle there; apparently not so easy to crack.

.

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2019, 07:40 AM

This is a most interesting anomaly which at first glance brings to mind of course Spanish cuphilts and indeed without being next to a 'bilbo' (M1728) Spanish sword it is in degree mindful of these type swords.

The blade appears to be a Solingen product, and it seems inscriptions of these kinds abound in these rapier blades, and as Sir James Mann notes in the Wallace collection (1962, p.304, A599) these inscriptions appear to be German corruptions of Spanish wording.
There examples of EM IOENEVENDO and LDC EVLENEELO are noted as 'making no sense'. The sword discussed is a German rapier c.1615.

The 'anchor' and the characteristic XX markings are typical of Solingen work.

In "The Rapier and Small Sword 1460-1820" AVB Norman, 1980, p.192, and in plate photo #59, a pommel very similar to this is shown on sword of 'Pappenheimer' style (pierced bilobate discs placed lower exposing inner guard) as N. Europe, c. 1625-35.

Also these kinds of rapiers with bilobate discs are seen in other entries (photo #61, and type 64 hilt).

In looking at this sword the small sword hilt comes to mind as well, but with less upward discs, in examples of 1640s, yet this sword has a distinct guard system structure to later cup hilt rapiers of Spain and Italy.

I am wondering if perhaps this is a rapier of the Low Countries with its austere demeanor and Spanish hilt features combined with the bilobate discs of the Pappenheimer fashion of the mid 17thc. +.

Possibly Jasper might have a look.

8th November 2019, 06:29 PM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	Dissimilar shells rapier... Portuguese? I just got this piece. I bought it thinking it could be an officer version of the Spanish 1728 model cavalry sword, but I am not sure that is correct. Probably the sword is earlier than what I first thought, at the end of XVIIth century. Contemporary to lots of cup hilt rapiers. I still think it is a military weapon, but it is too long for infantry use. And it is more thrust than cut. The inscriptions say: xx EM x ALEMANHA xx xx EMFLENTE x RONIQUE xx The first one sounds more oriented to Portuguese market than Spanish. It would be nice to have more info about this RONIQUE. EM FLENTE could be a place or EMELENTE It is 105cm long and weights 1070grams. Balance point some 5cm ahead of shell, handles easily. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 8th November 2019 at 07:07 PM.

8th November 2019, 06:44 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	To me it seems to unelaborate to be a civilian weapon at the end of XVII or beginning XVIII th centuries. I have in my pictures collection a similar hilt piece, specially at the reinforcing pas d ane, although the blade seems similar to those of XIXth century from Couleaux. Both with no bolts or screws. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 8th November 2019 at 07:20 PM.

8th November 2019, 06:39 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	Pictures took a while to show up. Looks like a civilian rapier...cool tho.

9th November 2019, 12:33 PM	#4
bvieira Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 108	Hello, Not portuguese. Regards, BV

9th November 2019, 01:06 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bizarre In fact EM ALEMANHA sounds very Portuguese; despite such wording doesn't frequently appear, it does show up now and then. Hoever the letterings on the other face, which 'regularly' show the name of the (German) smith, or words like ESPADEIRO DEL REY, don't match with any word at all, even considering the usual misspellings. Nothing close to those letterings appear as smith names in Viterbo's work or old exhibition catalogues. The closest approach to EMFLENTE would be 'Em Frente' (sort of straight ahead), but unlikely, though. You've got a riddle there; apparently not so easy to crack. . Attached Images

10th November 2019, 07:40 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	This is a most interesting anomaly which at first glance brings to mind of course Spanish cuphilts and indeed without being next to a 'bilbo' (M1728) Spanish sword it is in degree mindful of these type swords. The blade appears to be a Solingen product, and it seems inscriptions of these kinds abound in these rapier blades, and as Sir James Mann notes in the Wallace collection (1962, p.304, A599) these inscriptions appear to be German corruptions of Spanish wording. There examples of EM IOENEVENDO and LDC EVLENEELO are noted as 'making no sense'. The sword discussed is a German rapier c.1615. The 'anchor' and the characteristic XX markings are typical of Solingen work. In "The Rapier and Small Sword 1460-1820" AVB Norman, 1980, p.192, and in plate photo #59, a pommel very similar to this is shown on sword of 'Pappenheimer' style (pierced bilobate discs placed lower exposing inner guard) as N. Europe, c. 1625-35. Also these kinds of rapiers with bilobate discs are seen in other entries (photo #61, and type 64 hilt). In looking at this sword the small sword hilt comes to mind as well, but with less upward discs, in examples of 1640s, yet this sword has a distinct guard system structure to later cup hilt rapiers of Spain and Italy. I am wondering if perhaps this is a rapier of the Low Countries with its austere demeanor and Spanish hilt features combined with the bilobate discs of the Pappenheimer fashion of the mid 17thc. +. Possibly Jasper might have a look.