unknown possible weapon or ritual item?

mavi1970 · 2nd August 2011, 04:52 PM

I bought this on a whim, but now after receiving it and seeing the item, cant figure out what it is? Aside from the clover shaped blade, and islamic writing on both side, the leather sheath and hanging ring, the handle is of ivory with islamic writing and design on both sides. Initially one would think it is a ritual knife for possible sacrificial offerings, but i really dont know now.
Any help? anyone see anything like this before.???

Atlantia · 2nd August 2011, 04:58 PM

The handle looks like bone. Can we see the 'blade'?

Indianajones · 2nd August 2011, 06:17 PM

Looks like some kind of 'ritual blade' from the 1920's. The blade is etched with arabic writing I guess? Think the handle is not bone but white chalkpaint on wood, possibly to look like (engraved) bone/ivory.
. . . . .or its an early pingpongbat? . . . . . .

colin henshaw · 2nd August 2011, 06:33 PM

This is from the Sudan , Mahdist period. Should have "thuluth" Arabic etching on the blade.

Very nice, especially with the sheath. Quite rare.

Regards.

mavi1970 · 3rd August 2011, 02:30 AM

colin,
would you know what the use of this item would be?
rare, how rare? i have added a few pictures of the blade, sprayed some oil to give it the wet look.

mavi1970 · 3rd August 2011, 02:35 AM

and the handle is not wood. it is bone, now that i look closer at it, it is not ivory i dont think, but definately not wood or a ping pong item as another person stated!!

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2011, 07:34 AM

LOL! It does look like a ping pong paddle in a way

This is most definitely a weapon from Sudan, and is of a type which is understandably referred to in captions when grouped with other Sudanese dagger forms as a 'spade shaped dagger'. Examples of this from the Mahdist period were uusually with hilt covered with hide from Nile monitor lizards, and the blades profusely decorated in 'thuluth' which was believed to render talismanic protection to the warrior. It is known that daggers often served as utility pieces as well as weapons, however in the case of the Mahdiyya period examples, I personally would think that unlikely.

Actually these unusual bladed weapons were slashing knives, and there are similar wide blade knives with centrally positioned handles in the Central African regions which became the 'Belgian Congo'. The Kuba had varying examples of these dramatically wide, short blades ("African Weapons", Fischer & Zirngible, Passau, 1978, #282,283,284) in varying profiles but all wide. In their descriptions they are termed 'weighty, slashing knives'.

While the origin of this wide 'spade' shape in the Sudan is unclear, it is known that the kinds of throwing knives known from these regions are also well known in the Sudan. The 'Congo' actually nearly traversed the African continent in the 19th century, and while the Kuba kingdom was situated closer to West African regions, the lower Sudan was to the Congo's NE border, presenting possibilities for diffusion northward.

This example appears to be a later interpretation of one of these spade bladed daggers of Sudan from probably 20th century as suggested. The cartouches on the hilt of course represent probably Mamluk style ornamentation or perhaps Ottoman . The stamped solar designs may be an armourers stamp used as overall motif. The bone hilt recalls many items of Mahdist period which were hilted in ivory.

I am not aware of any ritual in either tradition or religion or otherwise in any of these regions which involve 'sacrifices'.

kronckew · 3rd August 2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...

I am not aware of any ritual in either tradition or religion or otherwise in any of these regions which involve 'sacrifices'.

circumcision?

colin henshaw · 4th August 2011, 12:19 PM

Hi

I have seen only 3 or 4 of these over the years, sometimes refered to as "trowel daggers". Here is an image of one similar to yours, from a very old sale catalogue. I've also seen specimens with leather wrapped handles.

As for usage, I don't really see them as serious weapons, more likely symbols of rank/elements of costume. Given the few collected and extant, perhaps they were worn by only senior Mahdists, such as Emirs ??

There seem to be a number of different types of Sudanese weapons that were made from "sheet steel" and with thuluth etching, often copies of Indo-Persian weapons (bichwa, haladie) also Central African throwing knives. Presumably these were all made in the Mahdist period.

Regards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavi1970

colin,
would you know what the use of this item would be?
rare, how rare? i have added a few pictures of the blade, sprayed some oil to give it the wet look.

mavi1970 · 4th August 2011, 01:59 PM

thanks Colin, for your insight. Well now i will clean it carefully and display it with the rest of my collection. It will go good with the other kaskara, nimcha's that i have.
thanks

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2011, 08:57 PM

Excellent info Colin!! and good suggestion on the symbol of rank possibility. It seems that many of these unusual 'weapons' including the haladie and dual bladed fork type daggers were often in ivory hilts and thuluth covered. It seems that perhaps strategically placed ranking individuals among the ranks might be afforded these noticeable weapons signifying power or rank in command of units.
There were also extremely wide and often somewhat 'trowel' shaped items with socket for mount on pole or long polearm shaft were termed 'alem' and typically profusely decorated with thuluth and devotional motif including the ewer. These I have seen termed 'lance heads' but were actually standards used in forming units in battle order, and were obviously too wide and shaped for any kind of lance type penetration.

Mav, it will indeed be an outstanding item in grouping with these other examples of North African weapons.

2nd August 2011, 04:52 PM	#1
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	unknown possible weapon or ritual item? I bought this on a whim, but now after receiving it and seeing the item, cant figure out what it is? Aside from the clover shaped blade, and islamic writing on both side, the leather sheath and hanging ring, the handle is of ivory with islamic writing and design on both sides. Initially one would think it is a ritual knife for possible sacrificial offerings, but i really dont know now. Any help? anyone see anything like this before.??? Attached Images

3rd August 2011, 02:30 AM	#5
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	colin, would you know what the use of this item would be? rare, how rare? i have added a few pictures of the blade, sprayed some oil to give it the wet look. Attached Images

3rd August 2011, 07:34 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	LOL! It does look like a ping pong paddle in a way This is most definitely a weapon from Sudan, and is of a type which is understandably referred to in captions when grouped with other Sudanese dagger forms as a 'spade shaped dagger'. Examples of this from the Mahdist period were uusually with hilt covered with hide from Nile monitor lizards, and the blades profusely decorated in 'thuluth' which was believed to render talismanic protection to the warrior. It is known that daggers often served as utility pieces as well as weapons, however in the case of the Mahdiyya period examples, I personally would think that unlikely. Actually these unusual bladed weapons were slashing knives, and there are similar wide blade knives with centrally positioned handles in the Central African regions which became the 'Belgian Congo'. The Kuba had varying examples of these dramatically wide, short blades ("African Weapons", Fischer & Zirngible, Passau, 1978, #282,283,284) in varying profiles but all wide. In their descriptions they are termed 'weighty, slashing knives'. While the origin of this wide 'spade' shape in the Sudan is unclear, it is known that the kinds of throwing knives known from these regions are also well known in the Sudan. The 'Congo' actually nearly traversed the African continent in the 19th century, and while the Kuba kingdom was situated closer to West African regions, the lower Sudan was to the Congo's NE border, presenting possibilities for diffusion northward. This example appears to be a later interpretation of one of these spade bladed daggers of Sudan from probably 20th century as suggested. The cartouches on the hilt of course represent probably Mamluk style ornamentation or perhaps Ottoman . The stamped solar designs may be an armourers stamp used as overall motif. The bone hilt recalls many items of Mahdist period which were hilted in ivory. I am not aware of any ritual in either tradition or religion or otherwise in any of these regions which involve 'sacrifices'. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd August 2011 at 04:59 PM.

2nd August 2011, 04:58 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The handle looks like bone. Can we see the 'blade'?

2nd August 2011, 06:17 PM	#3
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Looks like some kind of 'ritual blade' from the 1920's. The blade is etched with arabic writing I guess? Think the handle is not bone but white chalkpaint on wood, possibly to look like (engraved) bone/ivory. . . . . .or its an early pingpongbat? . . . . . .

2nd August 2011, 06:33 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	This is from the Sudan , Mahdist period. Should have "thuluth" Arabic etching on the blade. Very nice, especially with the sheath. Quite rare. Regards.

3rd August 2011, 02:35 AM	#6
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	and the handle is not wood. it is bone, now that i look closer at it, it is not ivory i dont think, but definately not wood or a ping pong item as another person stated!!

4th August 2011, 01:59 PM	#10
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks Colin, for your insight. Well now i will clean it carefully and display it with the rest of my collection. It will go good with the other kaskara, nimcha's that i have. thanks

4th August 2011, 08:57 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Excellent info Colin!! and good suggestion on the symbol of rank possibility. It seems that many of these unusual 'weapons' including the haladie and dual bladed fork type daggers were often in ivory hilts and thuluth covered. It seems that perhaps strategically placed ranking individuals among the ranks might be afforded these noticeable weapons signifying power or rank in command of units. There were also extremely wide and often somewhat 'trowel' shaped items with socket for mount on pole or long polearm shaft were termed 'alem' and typically profusely decorated with thuluth and devotional motif including the ewer. These I have seen termed 'lance heads' but were actually standards used in forming units in battle order, and were obviously too wide and shaped for any kind of lance type penetration. Mav, it will indeed be an outstanding item in grouping with these other examples of North African weapons.