Proper Bali Grip?

David · 7th December 2006, 04:57 PM

In this excellent thread on fighting with keris the proper grip was demonstrated in two sets of photos on pages 2 and 3 (thank you Alan and Zartane):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=keris+grip
One set of photos shows this grip with a typical Javanese hilt form and the other with the pistol grip style hilt common on Bugis and Peninsula blades. With both these styles of hilts i find this grip completely comfortable and natural. I have also found this grip comfortable with various other hilts from Madura and with the various Javanese Raksasa hilts i own.
I have a number of Balinese keris with at least 6 distinctly different hilt forms. For me NONE of these hilts seems to comfortably accomodate this particular grip. These hilts are all too big for it, especially at the base where they often widen, sometimes with large seluts. It just seems impossible to hold the hilt with thumb and forefinger on the blade. So, do Balinese hilts call for a completely different grip?

Rick · 8th December 2006, 01:53 AM

I don't think they really call for any grip at all when they have reached this size David.

IMHO I think what these handles represent is the transition from the keris as weapon to the keris as status symbol.

David · 8th December 2006, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

IMHO I think what these handles represent is the transition from the keris as weapon to the keris as status symbol.

With the fancier hilts i would tend to agree Rick, but it is just as difficult to use this grip with the simpler planar style hilts and the "hair" wrapped ones. Neither of these seem to hold the same status quality of, say, the jeweled Bayu hilts or other elaborately carved hilts. Yet they are still too big to use this grip and some of them (the ones i have at least) seem VERY weapon-ready.

Rick · 8th December 2006, 06:56 PM

Maybe you choke up on the handle?
See pics:

Included is a pair of Bondolan type hilts; one new and one old; the smaller handle is 3.5 inches long and usable.
How many of the old (19thC. and older) handles are large; I don't know.

Looks like a visit to Tammens is in order.

David · 10th December 2006, 07:40 PM

Hi Rick. I do find with my bondolan style hilts that a close approximation of this grip is possible if you choke up on the hilt a bit. However, while the thumb comfortably fits in the pecetan on one side, when chocked up the forefinger does not on the other, which was my understanding of the Javanese grip.

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2006, 11:37 PM

I think that this question is really a part of another question:- why are Bali keris bigger?

I haven't got very big hands---short fingers, square palm, thick.

There is no way I can hold a Bali keris the way I was taught to hold a Jawa keris.

I rather like your idea Rick, of linking the grip size, which of course reflects the keris size, to symbolism. I don't know we can just say "status", because you can get some pretty villagey keris that are pretty big, but I am inclined to think that the size of the Bali keris links to symbolism, amongst other things.

Keris are worn differently in Bali than in other places, and Balinese dress is different to the dress in Jawa and other places. In Jawa the sarung ends at the waist, the keris is worn at the waist, but in Bali a formal sarung comes up to the chest, and the keris is worn at the back with it sticking up above the shoulder. Worn like this a Jawa size keris would be out of proportion, it would look odd, it would possibly be difficult to draw. I wonder if keris size in Bali developed along with the wearing of the sarung in a different way?

Yeah, sure, in old Bali men leaving their villages had to go armed with a keris. Old bali was a pretty hairy place from all accounts. The various rulers at war with one another more often than not, lots of strife. It was a place to be avoided.Small communities cannot afford to lose members, so the members of a small community have a duty to the community to try to preserve their own lives. Thus you got outside the village you take your keris. Don't do it :- get fined.

Now this chest high sarung would not have been worn all the time, a normal waist high sarung would have been worn for everyday use more often so how was the super-size Bali keris worn then?

Well, maybe it wasn't worn, maybe it was carried. One thing you see often in Bali and Jawa is that men carrying knives that you might think would be logically stuck into the waist band of trousers, or into the waist fold of a sarung, carry these knives in their left hand.Maybe the big bali keris was carried this way under normal conditions too.

Some years ago I attempted to discuss Bali keris size with a very well known keris authority. I put the question:- why is the Bali keris bigger than the Jawa keris?

His answer?

It is not.

Now this man is not a fool, he has lived in Bali for a number of years, and lived in Indonesia for years, but here he is saying something that is apparently ridiculous. I could not get him to expand on this statement. He is extremely unforthcoming in matters of the keris, because he is always on the verge of publishing something, and in his case this relates directly to income.

I've often thought about what he meant by saying that the Bali keris is not bigger than the Jawa keris. Possibly he meant that proportionately it is not bigger. Generally speaking, Balinese men tend to be physically bigger than Javanese men. Maybe as a proportion of body size both keris types are about the same in size.

If this is so, and the keris size increased along with body size, then it is possible that at some point in development it was noted that the pesi had become robust enough to sustain side pressure from slashes, or thrusts gone wrong. As pesi strength increased , length increased, weight increased, the Bali keris might have become too heavy to be used effectively the way a Jawa keris was used, so a different method of use evolved, which involved only gripping the handle.

Look at the Bali keris handle:- it is designed to provide a firm, non-slip grip. It is meant to be held firmly, not just act as a guide and balance point as is the case with a Jawa keris.

I think that we are probably looking at a completely different method of use associated with the Bali keris than with the Jawa keris.

At this remove it might be impossible to substantiate this.

Dances and martial arts use cannot be held to reflect normal combat use of 200 years ago.

However, it seems to me that if a handle is made in a way that indicates ideal form for a non-slip grip, even when the user's hand and the handle itself are dripping blood, then that handle is meant to be firmly held, not just act as a guide.

7th December 2006, 04:57 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Proper Bali Grip? In this excellent thread on fighting with keris the proper grip was demonstrated in two sets of photos on pages 2 and 3 (thank you Alan and Zartane): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=keris+grip One set of photos shows this grip with a typical Javanese hilt form and the other with the pistol grip style hilt common on Bugis and Peninsula blades. With both these styles of hilts i find this grip completely comfortable and natural. I have also found this grip comfortable with various other hilts from Madura and with the various Javanese Raksasa hilts i own. I have a number of Balinese keris with at least 6 distinctly different hilt forms. For me NONE of these hilts seems to comfortably accomodate this particular grip. These hilts are all too big for it, especially at the base where they often widen, sometimes with large seluts. It just seems impossible to hold the hilt with thumb and forefinger on the blade. So, do Balinese hilts call for a completely different grip?

8th December 2006, 06:56 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Maybe you choke up on the handle? See pics: Included is a pair of Bondolan type hilts; one new and one old; the smaller handle is 3.5 inches long and usable. How many of the old (19thC. and older) handles are large; I don't know. Looks like a visit to Tammens is in order. Attached Images

8th December 2006, 01:53 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I don't think they really call for any grip at all when they have reached this size David. IMHO I think what these handles represent is the transition from the keris as weapon to the keris as status symbol.

10th December 2006, 07:40 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Hi Rick. I do find with my bondolan style hilts that a close approximation of this grip is possible if you choke up on the hilt a bit. However, while the thumb comfortably fits in the pecetan on one side, when chocked up the forefinger does not on the other, which was my understanding of the Javanese grip.

10th December 2006, 11:37 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I think that this question is really a part of another question:- why are Bali keris bigger? I haven't got very big hands---short fingers, square palm, thick. There is no way I can hold a Bali keris the way I was taught to hold a Jawa keris. I rather like your idea Rick, of linking the grip size, which of course reflects the keris size, to symbolism. I don't know we can just say "status", because you can get some pretty villagey keris that are pretty big, but I am inclined to think that the size of the Bali keris links to symbolism, amongst other things. Keris are worn differently in Bali than in other places, and Balinese dress is different to the dress in Jawa and other places. In Jawa the sarung ends at the waist, the keris is worn at the waist, but in Bali a formal sarung comes up to the chest, and the keris is worn at the back with it sticking up above the shoulder. Worn like this a Jawa size keris would be out of proportion, it would look odd, it would possibly be difficult to draw. I wonder if keris size in Bali developed along with the wearing of the sarung in a different way? Yeah, sure, in old Bali men leaving their villages had to go armed with a keris. Old bali was a pretty hairy place from all accounts. The various rulers at war with one another more often than not, lots of strife. It was a place to be avoided.Small communities cannot afford to lose members, so the members of a small community have a duty to the community to try to preserve their own lives. Thus you got outside the village you take your keris. Don't do it :- get fined. Now this chest high sarung would not have been worn all the time, a normal waist high sarung would have been worn for everyday use more often so how was the super-size Bali keris worn then? Well, maybe it wasn't worn, maybe it was carried. One thing you see often in Bali and Jawa is that men carrying knives that you might think would be logically stuck into the waist band of trousers, or into the waist fold of a sarung, carry these knives in their left hand.Maybe the big bali keris was carried this way under normal conditions too. Some years ago I attempted to discuss Bali keris size with a very well known keris authority. I put the question:- why is the Bali keris bigger than the Jawa keris? His answer? It is not. Now this man is not a fool, he has lived in Bali for a number of years, and lived in Indonesia for years, but here he is saying something that is apparently ridiculous. I could not get him to expand on this statement. He is extremely unforthcoming in matters of the keris, because he is always on the verge of publishing something, and in his case this relates directly to income. I've often thought about what he meant by saying that the Bali keris is not bigger than the Jawa keris. Possibly he meant that proportionately it is not bigger. Generally speaking, Balinese men tend to be physically bigger than Javanese men. Maybe as a proportion of body size both keris types are about the same in size. If this is so, and the keris size increased along with body size, then it is possible that at some point in development it was noted that the pesi had become robust enough to sustain side pressure from slashes, or thrusts gone wrong. As pesi strength increased , length increased, weight increased, the Bali keris might have become too heavy to be used effectively the way a Jawa keris was used, so a different method of use evolved, which involved only gripping the handle. Look at the Bali keris handle:- it is designed to provide a firm, non-slip grip. It is meant to be held firmly, not just act as a guide and balance point as is the case with a Jawa keris. I think that we are probably looking at a completely different method of use associated with the Bali keris than with the Jawa keris. At this remove it might be impossible to substantiate this. Dances and martial arts use cannot be held to reflect normal combat use of 200 years ago. However, it seems to me that if a handle is made in a way that indicates ideal form for a non-slip grip, even when the user's hand and the handle itself are dripping blood, then that handle is meant to be firmly held, not just act as a guide.