The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Jens Nordlunde · 28th October 2016, 05:43 PM

Could someone interested in researching, not help out a bit, and please start a research on the flowers on the tulwar hilts?
A lot of hilts/flowers are shown in my latest catalogue, so this could be a starter.
At the moment I cant do it myself, as I am wound up in researching some katar types, which I believe belong together, but I yet have to prove it.
What I know so far is, that they are from Rajasthan, ande the age seem to differ. They are shown in old catalogues, but the place of origin is avoided, and so is the age. So I will have to dig deeper to find an answer.
It would, however, help if someone will take the task to start looking into the flowers on the tulwar hilts - so we can move a bit farther than we are now.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2016, 06:05 PM

Thank you so much for bringing up this topic Jens!
This is something we have talked about for years, that there seem to be far deeper purposes and meanings beyond pure aesthetics in the floral and vegetal motifs in these hilt decorations.

While many may disagree on hidden symbolisms in such decoration, I am inclined to think these must have been present. In "Hindu Arms and Ritual", Robert Elgood beautifully addressed the many ritual and symbolic aspects of all sorts of flora with respect to preparation for battle, insignia and auspicious representations.

I am hoping others will agree and join in revisiting this important topic, and share thoughts and ideas on floral symbolism in Indian arms.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th October 2016, 09:17 AM

I have some sketches with flowers on...and pictures.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th October 2016, 09:57 AM

More...

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2016, 09:11 PM

Excellent images Ibrahiim! Thank you.
As I look at these, I can visualize the many incredible hilts of the swords in Jens' collection as shown in his magnificent new catalog.

As Jens has asked for us to join in his long standing research on the floral imagery on tulwar hilts, I wanted to add some material I had found on Mughal hilt decoration.

In " The Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" by Stephen Markel ('Marg' magazine, Vol.50 #3, Mar. 1999) it is noted that
"...throughout the Mughal period there were several basic uses of flora and fauna imagery in the decorative arts. First and foremost was adornment for both solely decorative and or dynastic identifying purposes."

It is noted that dagger and sword hilts, sheaths and scabbards were the most prolifically decorated. The hilts were designed with floral and vegetal forms, raised or inlaid poppy plants or other flowers or terminating in floral shapes. Single buds were most favored terminals at end of knuckleguard.

Shah Jahan (r. 1628-58) used floral imagery codifying flowering plants as dynastic leitmotif and this practice endured for two centuries.

By the end of the Mughal period in mid 19th c these dynastic emblems of flowering plants had paled into a repetitive motif far less aesthetic than the elegant representations of the 17th c.

These notes from Markel's excellent article suggest that with the Mughal sphere, the choices for floral imagery was at least in large degree to represent their dynastic symbolism.

Perhaps these identifications of the flowers represented might assist in dating a hilt, not only by the flower represented, but the character and quality of its presentation .

In the case of Rajput or Sikh examples, these might align with either Hindu floral motif, which I believe was more aligned religiously in character, though it would seem that motifs often transcended deeper symbolisms in being copied aesthetically in other contexts. With that being the case, the Mughal decoration may well have been found in these also.

Having noted these aspects, what needs to be discovered and categorized is the nature of depictions of various flower and vegetal motif, and if possible any provenance which might place them in certain contexts.

ariel · 30th October 2016, 01:06 PM

After almost 40 years of marriage, my wife finally summarized two of my hopeless basic flaws:
1. Even though I am not color blind, I am "color deaf".
2. For me, any flowering thingie with thorns is a rose, and without them, - a tulip.

The former is an insurmountable obstacle for choosing an appropriate tie for a shirt. The latter disqualifies me from deciphering decorative floral motives on anything, including Oriental weapons.

When the two are combined ( such as bringing her flowers) the result is usually catastrophic.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th February 2017, 05:52 PM

Maybe the thread should be made a bit broader, so the title should be.
The flowers on the tulwar hilts, and the flowers/suns on top of the disc.
My reason for expanding the title is, that I believe the decoration on top of the disc, or failing decoration, is of importance.
Unfortunately we know very little about these disc decorations, but hopefully we can get the different details together, so we can get a better overall picture. The flowers are very different, and the suns have a very different number of rays, but I find it unlikely that this has to do with an artistic 'fingerprint'.

A. G. Maisey · 13th February 2017, 11:14 PM

In mainline Hindu belief each deity has an appropriate or favourite flower that is used during puja, here are some examples:-

Lord Ganesh:- His favourite flower is hibiscus, but really you can use any red flower; you can also use other flowers such as roses, or jasmine or marigolds, as well as various leaves. In Ganesh Puja more than 20 types of flowers and leaves are used.

Lord Shiva:- His appropriate colour is white, the most important flower/fruit/leaf in Shiva Puja is the bael (aegle marmelos, bilvapatra, bel). Other flowers can be offered.

Durga:- Her appropriate colour is red, hibiscus is a suitable flower, you can also offer bael fruit/flower/leaf, or lotus, or jasmine (mogra)

Parvati:- All flowers suitable for Lord Shiva are suitable for Parvati

Lord Vishnu:- His favourite flower is lotus. He is also very fond of tulsi (holy basil) leaves.

Lord Brahma:- His most appropriate flowers are lotus and crepe gardenia (firki tagar)

Surya Devata (God of the Sun):- lotus

with thanks to Lord Ganesh

These are just a few examples, the list is endless, and opinions can differ as to what is appropriate, or favourite. Even in what I have given above, I've only given favourites or "most appropriate" in most cases other flowers/leaves/fruits can also be used, and to know them all and their correct order is really the skill of a Brahmin.

The use of these flowers/leaves/fruits as ornamental or decorative motifs would depend upon how and where used, and by whom.

My area of knowledge is the keris, not Indian weaponry, what I've given above is just a touch of an area of subsidiary knowledge that is required to understand some things connected with keris culture, however, my guess would be that the use of these floral motifs in Indian decorative art probably depends very much upon the wishes of the first owner of the object, and perhaps only he knew the true meaning of the use of the motif, according to his understanding.

Where use of these motifs in an Islamic context is concerned, obviously the interpretation will differ.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2017, 05:47 PM

Alan, thank you so much for this remarkable and itemized information pertaining to the symbolism associated with various Hindu deities. This is exactly the kind of detail needed to better understand the floral aspects of these hilts, and their imbued symbolism.
It is a well placed reminder as you have noted, that often key data and clues in the study of one field of weapons may be found within studies of other arms, not necessarily directly connected.

As you have well observed, it is most unlikely we can know without a doubt the exact purpose or meaning intended by the original artisan who created the decoration, or that of its intended client or clientele. These imbuements are of other times and circumstances, and their actual intended meanings do not necessarily transcend into later situations or generations. Often times these motifs may simply be repeated aesthetically or traditionally without such aspects being known.

Still, having such insight into the symbolism generally held in Hindu dogma and tradition can give us a reasonably plausible view to evaluate such possibilities.

Also, as noted, there was a good degree of use of Hindu motif melded into the decoration of Islamic arms which was likely far more aesthetically applied in many cases. However, it is known that a number of favored floral patterns became dynastic leitmotif in other cases.

A. G. Maisey · 14th February 2017, 09:46 PM

Thanks for your comment Jim.

I have believed for a long time that it is simply not possible to learn much about keris, by the attempted study of keris. Pretty much all one can gain by studying the keris itself is superficial and often erroneous understandings of the simple physical characteristics.

The Indianised States of South East Asia , most especially Jawa and Bali, owe much to their Indian heritage. That heritage has been combined with indigenous cultural values, and overlaid with the values and beliefs of other cultures, very much so in Java, to a lesser degree in Bali, but the foundations of Hindu-Buddhist symbolism are still there.

To have any hope at all of understanding this symbolism, and the associated values, it is essential to study the society and culture, rather than a single blossom of that culture:- the keris.

I am inclined to believe that using this socio-cultural approach to the study of perhaps any form of weaponry that was/is used by any group of people will yield better results than trying to understand a weapon by studying the weapon itself.

To put it another way:- if we regard weapons as blossoms of a culture, roses, so to speak, we do the same as a dedicated rose gardener does:- we study the soil in which the rose grows, in order to understand the rose. We do not begin with a petal and then work back to the soil. Study of a petal tells us almost nothing, study of the soil tells us almost everything.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2017, 01:43 PM

Alan, thank you for your posts. They are very interesting, especially the part about the flowers connected to the deieties. I have always thought that the number of flowers were more limited.
Your last post explains it all quite well, and the way you end the post explains very well how a research should be started:-).

28th October 2016, 05:43 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The floral decoration and hilt disc motif on tulwars Could someone interested in researching, not help out a bit, and please start a research on the flowers on the tulwar hilts? A lot of hilts/flowers are shown in my latest catalogue, so this could be a starter. At the moment I cant do it myself, as I am wound up in researching some katar types, which I believe belong together, but I yet have to prove it. What I know so far is, that they are from Rajasthan, ande the age seem to differ. They are shown in old catalogues, but the place of origin is avoided, and so is the age. So I will have to dig deeper to find an answer. It would, however, help if someone will take the task to start looking into the flowers on the tulwar hilts - so we can move a bit farther than we are now. Jens Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th February 2017 at 06:51 PM. Reason: expand scope of discussion

29th October 2016, 09:57 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	More... Attached Images

28th October 2016, 06:05 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you so much for bringing up this topic Jens! This is something we have talked about for years, that there seem to be far deeper purposes and meanings beyond pure aesthetics in the floral and vegetal motifs in these hilt decorations. While many may disagree on hidden symbolisms in such decoration, I am inclined to think these must have been present. In "Hindu Arms and Ritual", Robert Elgood beautifully addressed the many ritual and symbolic aspects of all sorts of flora with respect to preparation for battle, insignia and auspicious representations. I am hoping others will agree and join in revisiting this important topic, and share thoughts and ideas on floral symbolism in Indian arms.

29th October 2016, 09:17 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Flowers on Tulvar Hilts. I have some sketches with flowers on...and pictures. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 29th October 2016 at 09:32 AM.

29th October 2016, 09:11 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Excellent images Ibrahiim! Thank you. As I look at these, I can visualize the many incredible hilts of the swords in Jens' collection as shown in his magnificent new catalog. As Jens has asked for us to join in his long standing research on the floral imagery on tulwar hilts, I wanted to add some material I had found on Mughal hilt decoration. In " The Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" by Stephen Markel ('Marg' magazine, Vol.50 #3, Mar. 1999) it is noted that "...throughout the Mughal period there were several basic uses of flora and fauna imagery in the decorative arts. First and foremost was adornment for both solely decorative and or dynastic identifying purposes." It is noted that dagger and sword hilts, sheaths and scabbards were the most prolifically decorated. The hilts were designed with floral and vegetal forms, raised or inlaid poppy plants or other flowers or terminating in floral shapes. Single buds were most favored terminals at end of knuckleguard. Shah Jahan (r. 1628-58) used floral imagery codifying flowering plants as dynastic leitmotif and this practice endured for two centuries. By the end of the Mughal period in mid 19th c these dynastic emblems of flowering plants had paled into a repetitive motif far less aesthetic than the elegant representations of the 17th c. These notes from Markel's excellent article suggest that with the Mughal sphere, the choices for floral imagery was at least in large degree to represent their dynastic symbolism. Perhaps these identifications of the flowers represented might assist in dating a hilt, not only by the flower represented, but the character and quality of its presentation . In the case of Rajput or Sikh examples, these might align with either Hindu floral motif, which I believe was more aligned religiously in character, though it would seem that motifs often transcended deeper symbolisms in being copied aesthetically in other contexts. With that being the case, the Mughal decoration may well have been found in these also. Having noted these aspects, what needs to be discovered and categorized is the nature of depictions of various flower and vegetal motif, and if possible any provenance which might place them in certain contexts.

30th October 2016, 01:06 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	After almost 40 years of marriage, my wife finally summarized two of my hopeless basic flaws: 1. Even though I am not color blind, I am "color deaf". 2. For me, any flowering thingie with thorns is a rose, and without them, - a tulip. The former is an insurmountable obstacle for choosing an appropriate tie for a shirt. The latter disqualifies me from deciphering decorative floral motives on anything, including Oriental weapons. When the two are combined ( such as bringing her flowers) the result is usually catastrophic.

13th February 2017, 05:52 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Maybe the thread should be made a bit broader, so the title should be. The flowers on the tulwar hilts, and the flowers/suns on top of the disc. My reason for expanding the title is, that I believe the decoration on top of the disc, or failing decoration, is of importance. Unfortunately we know very little about these disc decorations, but hopefully we can get the different details together, so we can get a better overall picture. The flowers are very different, and the suns have a very different number of rays, but I find it unlikely that this has to do with an artistic 'fingerprint'.

13th February 2017, 11:14 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	In mainline Hindu belief each deity has an appropriate or favourite flower that is used during puja, here are some examples:- Lord Ganesh:- His favourite flower is hibiscus, but really you can use any red flower; you can also use other flowers such as roses, or jasmine or marigolds, as well as various leaves. In Ganesh Puja more than 20 types of flowers and leaves are used. Lord Shiva:- His appropriate colour is white, the most important flower/fruit/leaf in Shiva Puja is the bael (aegle marmelos, bilvapatra, bel). Other flowers can be offered. Durga:- Her appropriate colour is red, hibiscus is a suitable flower, you can also offer bael fruit/flower/leaf, or lotus, or jasmine (mogra) Parvati:- All flowers suitable for Lord Shiva are suitable for Parvati Lord Vishnu:- His favourite flower is lotus. He is also very fond of tulsi (holy basil) leaves. Lord Brahma:- His most appropriate flowers are lotus and crepe gardenia (firki tagar) Surya Devata (God of the Sun):- lotus with thanks to Lord Ganesh These are just a few examples, the list is endless, and opinions can differ as to what is appropriate, or favourite. Even in what I have given above, I've only given favourites or "most appropriate" in most cases other flowers/leaves/fruits can also be used, and to know them all and their correct order is really the skill of a Brahmin. The use of these flowers/leaves/fruits as ornamental or decorative motifs would depend upon how and where used, and by whom. My area of knowledge is the keris, not Indian weaponry, what I've given above is just a touch of an area of subsidiary knowledge that is required to understand some things connected with keris culture, however, my guess would be that the use of these floral motifs in Indian decorative art probably depends very much upon the wishes of the first owner of the object, and perhaps only he knew the true meaning of the use of the motif, according to his understanding. Where use of these motifs in an Islamic context is concerned, obviously the interpretation will differ.

14th February 2017, 05:47 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Alan, thank you so much for this remarkable and itemized information pertaining to the symbolism associated with various Hindu deities. This is exactly the kind of detail needed to better understand the floral aspects of these hilts, and their imbued symbolism. It is a well placed reminder as you have noted, that often key data and clues in the study of one field of weapons may be found within studies of other arms, not necessarily directly connected. As you have well observed, it is most unlikely we can know without a doubt the exact purpose or meaning intended by the original artisan who created the decoration, or that of its intended client or clientele. These imbuements are of other times and circumstances, and their actual intended meanings do not necessarily transcend into later situations or generations. Often times these motifs may simply be repeated aesthetically or traditionally without such aspects being known. Still, having such insight into the symbolism generally held in Hindu dogma and tradition can give us a reasonably plausible view to evaluate such possibilities. Also, as noted, there was a good degree of use of Hindu motif melded into the decoration of Islamic arms which was likely far more aesthetically applied in many cases. However, it is known that a number of favored floral patterns became dynastic leitmotif in other cases.

14th February 2017, 09:46 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Thanks for your comment Jim. I have believed for a long time that it is simply not possible to learn much about keris, by the attempted study of keris. Pretty much all one can gain by studying the keris itself is superficial and often erroneous understandings of the simple physical characteristics. The Indianised States of South East Asia , most especially Jawa and Bali, owe much to their Indian heritage. That heritage has been combined with indigenous cultural values, and overlaid with the values and beliefs of other cultures, very much so in Java, to a lesser degree in Bali, but the foundations of Hindu-Buddhist symbolism are still there. To have any hope at all of understanding this symbolism, and the associated values, it is essential to study the society and culture, rather than a single blossom of that culture:- the keris. I am inclined to believe that using this socio-cultural approach to the study of perhaps any form of weaponry that was/is used by any group of people will yield better results than trying to understand a weapon by studying the weapon itself. To put it another way:- if we regard weapons as blossoms of a culture, roses, so to speak, we do the same as a dedicated rose gardener does:- we study the soil in which the rose grows, in order to understand the rose. We do not begin with a petal and then work back to the soil. Study of a petal tells us almost nothing, study of the soil tells us almost everything.

15th February 2017, 01:43 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alan, thank you for your posts. They are very interesting, especially the part about the flowers connected to the deieties. I have always thought that the number of flowers were more limited. Your last post explains it all quite well, and the way you end the post explains very well how a research should be started:-).