Metal Keris Handle

kinary · 24th June 2018, 07:57 PM

Hi, I'm a new member and glad to join this forum.
Basically my interest is Indonesian Keris handle.

Simply I just want to know,
How to make a metal handle?

It is easy to imagine, when craftsman wants to make a handle made of wood or ivory, they will directly carve from the material by using tools such as chisel.

As for metal handle, especially solid gold handle like a picture below,
does goldsmith make a cast first then carve the details?
Or directly carve the gold?

Rick · 24th June 2018, 08:49 PM

Welcome.
It would be nice to see a larger picture that shows more detail.
How many grams does this beauty weigh?

David · 24th June 2018, 10:25 PM

Welcome to the forum Kinary.
I agree with Rick, better photos are vital especially if you are interested in exactly how this particular hilt was created.
I do know that such hilts are not always solid gold. Often with gold hilts you have sheet metal that is worked over a wooden base. But i don't know that that is the case with a hilt such as this. Just keep in mind that the same technique is not used on all metal hilts. Some may be cast, others hammered over a wooden or resin core, etc.
This is a really nice looking hilt btw. Is it yours?

kinary · 25th June 2018, 08:05 AM

Thank you Rick and David,

This is not my handle, a collection of Neka museum.

I don't have other pictures on this specific hilt, but what I want to know is general knowledge of making, especially about Balinese solid gold hilt.

David · 25th June 2018, 04:16 PM

Well, that is a little out of my personal scope of knowledge. I can't speak for others. But living in Jakarta you are not that far from Bali and high end hilts of precious metals are still being made there as far as i know. A great deal of what is on view in the Neka Museum is contemporary work. If you really want to learn more about the methods of making such hilts you can probably find the craftsmen themselves to talk to about this. You might want to start by paying the Neka a visit and asking them if they can direct you to any current craftspeople.

kinary · 25th June 2018, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, that is a little out of my personal scope of knowledge. I can't speak for others. But living in Jakarta you are not that far from Bali and high end hilts of precious metals are still being made there as far as i know. A great deal of what is on view in the Neka Museum is contemporary work. If you really want to learn more about the methods of making such hilts you can probably find the craftsmen themselves to talk to about this. You might want to start by paying the Neka a visit and asking them if they can direct you to any current craftspeople.

David,
That's exactly what I want to know.
Does skilful goldsmith to make very nice metal keris handle still existing in Bali or not?
Sometimes I see some gold (not solid) or silver hilt which are newly made in Bali, but not so intricate as a picture as attached.

Anthony G. · 25th June 2018, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinary

Hi, I'm a new member and glad to join this forum.
Basically my interest is Indonesian Keris handle.

Simply I just want to know,
How to make a metal handle?

It is easy to imagine, when craftsman wants to make a handle made of wood or ivory, they will directly carve from the material by using tools such as chisel.

As for metal handle, especially solid gold handle like a picture below,
does goldsmith make a cast first then carve the details?
Or directly carve the gold?

This piece seems to be from a Bali museum.

kinary · 25th June 2018, 06:47 PM

I know there are some skilful carvers to make very nice handle from moose, wood or other materials. But metal handle would be different category.

David · 25th June 2018, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

This piece seems to be from a Bali museum.

Yes, the Neka Museum. Kinary said as much in his post #4.

Rick · 25th June 2018, 07:22 PM

A solid gold handle would be made with the lost wax casting method. Such a handle would be extremely heavy and would cost probably 12,000 (or more) dollars in gold (not counting gems); then the maker would charge for his labor on top of all the other costs.
If you wanted to cast most of the detail you would probably need to use a centrifugal casting device which would spin the mold at high speed to force the molten metal into the fine details; even then the casting would need further carving and detail work.

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2018, 12:22 AM

All very true Rick, but there is one other thing too:- it would be far too heavy to be able to wear in any traditional manner, and you'd need both hands to lift it off the table.

rasjid · 26th June 2018, 02:53 AM

Kinary,
From my experience and some other info, yes you still can order new gold handle Bali keris. If they can make the silver, they can make in gold but surely the risk become higher if order from scretch. Meaning: you prepare or paid the gold, you have to trust the maker 100%, hopefully finished as agreed and you like the result. Its a long journey as situation can changed a lot in between.
Quality of workmanship is an issue once done. Either you like it or not happy.

If you are new or not really have a good information, its much easier just buy finished one and pay as agreed. They do changed hands but very rare. As good one ( quality- questionable: how deep is your understanding of quality)
, old, rarerity, sought after- high demand as any other items we know always high price

Attached my hilt, just another sample. From side you can see the material is thin and material used is kind of wax, dont know what to call-may be Allan can help. They mold and cover, once cold its inner core harden and can be modelled. Similar to some pendok process in Java

Rasjid

24th June 2018, 07:57 PM	#1
kinary Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Jakarta Posts: 6	Metal Keris Handle Hi, I'm a new member and glad to join this forum. Basically my interest is Indonesian Keris handle. Simply I just want to know, How to make a metal handle? It is easy to imagine, when craftsman wants to make a handle made of wood or ivory, they will directly carve from the material by using tools such as chisel. As for metal handle, especially solid gold handle like a picture below, does goldsmith make a cast first then carve the details? Or directly carve the gold? Attached Images

25th June 2018, 07:22 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	A solid gold handle would be made with the lost wax casting method. Such a handle would be extremely heavy and would cost probably 12,000 (or more) dollars in gold (not counting gems); then the maker would charge for his labor on top of all the other costs. If you wanted to cast most of the detail you would probably need to use a centrifugal casting device which would spin the mold at high speed to force the molten metal into the fine details; even then the casting would need further carving and detail work. Last edited by Rick; 25th June 2018 at 07:33 PM.

26th June 2018, 02:53 AM	#12
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Kinary, From my experience and some other info, yes you still can order new gold handle Bali keris. If they can make the silver, they can make in gold but surely the risk become higher if order from scretch. Meaning: you prepare or paid the gold, you have to trust the maker 100%, hopefully finished as agreed and you like the result. Its a long journey as situation can changed a lot in between. Quality of workmanship is an issue once done. Either you like it or not happy. If you are new or not really have a good information, its much easier just buy finished one and pay as agreed. They do changed hands but very rare. As good one ( quality- questionable: how deep is your understanding of quality) , old, rarerity, sought after- high demand as any other items we know always high price Attached my hilt, just another sample. From side you can see the material is thin and material used is kind of wax, dont know what to call-may be Allan can help. They mold and cover, once cold its inner core harden and can be modelled. Similar to some pendok process in Java Rasjid Attached Images

24th June 2018, 08:49 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Welcome. It would be nice to see a larger picture that shows more detail. How many grams does this beauty weigh?

24th June 2018, 10:25 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Welcome to the forum Kinary. I agree with Rick, better photos are vital especially if you are interested in exactly how this particular hilt was created. I do know that such hilts are not always solid gold. Often with gold hilts you have sheet metal that is worked over a wooden base. But i don't know that that is the case with a hilt such as this. Just keep in mind that the same technique is not used on all metal hilts. Some may be cast, others hammered over a wooden or resin core, etc. This is a really nice looking hilt btw. Is it yours?

25th June 2018, 08:05 AM	#4
kinary Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Jakarta Posts: 6	Thank you Rick and David, This is not my handle, a collection of Neka museum. I don't have other pictures on this specific hilt, but what I want to know is general knowledge of making, especially about Balinese solid gold hilt.

25th June 2018, 04:16 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Well, that is a little out of my personal scope of knowledge. I can't speak for others. But living in Jakarta you are not that far from Bali and high end hilts of precious metals are still being made there as far as i know. A great deal of what is on view in the Neka Museum is contemporary work. If you really want to learn more about the methods of making such hilts you can probably find the craftsmen themselves to talk to about this. You might want to start by paying the Neka a visit and asking them if they can direct you to any current craftspeople.

25th June 2018, 06:47 PM	#8
kinary Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Jakarta Posts: 6	I know there are some skilful carvers to make very nice handle from moose, wood or other materials. But metal handle would be different category.

26th June 2018, 12:22 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	All very true Rick, but there is one other thing too:- it would be far too heavy to be able to wear in any traditional manner, and you'd need both hands to lift it off the table.