Sudanese Command Batons

TVV · 20th April 2019, 09:48 PM

Here is a somewhat unusual item - based on a paper by Stephane Pradnies from 2016, titled "A Late Military Use of the Sphero-conical in the 19th Century Sudan", I believe it to be two Sudanese command batons from the 19th century. You can find the paper in Academia.edu, and these look very similar to the item shown in Fig. 2. According to Pradnies , the small baton has provenance as a trophy, collected following the battle of Navarino in 1827 when the Egyptian fleet was destroyed during the war that led to the independence of Greece from the Ottoman Empire. The collection of various trophies with Eastern African origin from the Egyptian Corps that were fighting on the Ottoman side as Ottoman vassals would perhaps also explain the gile in Elgood's book.

Per Pradines, there were two such batons collected, one of which is in a private collection in the UK, and another one in a private collection in Greece. They consisted of short woodens shafts, with a small spearhead in one end and a sphero-conical vessel in the other. Unfortunately, one of mine has lost the sphero-conical vessel, and at some point it looks like someone tried to combine the two into one with some brass wire. The use of these sphero-conical vessels is also a point of debate, but their mostly likely use was as standardized containers used during the Indian Ocean trade dating back to the time of the Mamelukes in the late Middle Ages.

Again, all of this info is based on Pradines' paper. Have you seen similar items? These tend to appear as pairs, as opposed to single items, and I also wonder what the significance of that would be.

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 21st April 2019, 06:49 AM

These are really interesting Teodor, , and while I cannot add anything I just wanted to note I never had any idea that the Sudanese used command batons.
I think that most of my focus has been on Mahdist and post Omdurman forces and weaponry, and by this time other means of identifying leaders of the varying units were used.

I could understand specified Sudanese association with these captured in Ottoman action against Greece in that early time as Ottoman Egypt had nominally taken Sudan in 1821, and they surely used Sudanese forces in degree. What is confusing is the title of this paper (which I have not been able to access yet) suggests the use of the sphero-conical items in 19th c Sudan but it is unclear how they were used.

Here attached to these mysterious batons is puzzling as it would seem there is some symbolic convention intended (the use of these as grenades etc. in ancient to Mamluk period contexts) much in the way a gorget is intended as a badge of rank or distinction.

I look forward to getting this article as the only article I have accessed by this author pretty much asks similar questions but no answers.

It would seem that Ottomans might have adopted the baton use as noted as they adopted many European military notions, which in turn were in many cases from traditions into antiquity, but these are most curious.

TVV · 21st April 2019, 08:17 PM

Thank you for your comments Jim.

For reference, I am attaching a picture of the baton, pictured in Mr. Pradines' paper.

Martin Lubojacky · 22nd April 2019, 12:04 PM

Hi,
Acc. what Mr Manfred Zirngibl told me years ago, this should be a staff of Sudanese priests. I don´t know if it is true - or not.... Maybe there is picture with explanation in Pangana visu book (?) with explanation. Enclosed is piece from my collection (I only have this wrong picture with me)

Martin Lubojacky · 22nd April 2019, 12:55 PM

Quotation from the book Panga na visu + picture

thinreadline · 22nd April 2019, 01:30 PM

and along the same lines , this is what I have in my collection ...

I posted a picture of this some time ago and the conclusion was that it was a Sudanese dancing spear and that the coins were those of Abdulhamid II ( 1842-1918 ) .

LJ · 22nd April 2019, 09:07 PM

I assume this is the sort of thing being discussed.

I've wondered for some time what it is: something had obviously dropped off the end, leaving me puzzled what the item was. Without this sort of discussion forum I might never have had any idea as to its identification.

TVV · 23rd April 2019, 07:39 AM

Yes LJ, this is another example of these objects.

I just read the text to the illustrations in Panga Na Visu and if my poor German has not failed me, the use Zirngibl suggests for these Cult spears is a little out there: per Zirngibl, these were used during so-called "Cleansing of the Body through Pain" ceremonies by extreme Muslim fanatics to self-inflict wounds and communicate to God that way.

The literature quoted as a source is not in the Bibliography. Maybe someone would be familiar with these sources:

Fagan, W. Mount Clemens, o. J. Abb. u. Text Nr. 373-380
Pascha, E. o. J. page 109

Martin Lubojacky · 23rd April 2019, 09:42 AM

Small remarks which could, maybe, contribute to the clarification of the use:

The cone/nob made of black clay is, in fact, relatively breakable. The small red bids inserted in it are not bids made of glass etc - it is seed of some tree and in many cases they already dropped out (this does not seem to be durable command baton like eg mace/bulava) It is really long time and I don´t remember well already, but I heard the clay and seeds had some meaning for Mahdist monks...

TVV · 23rd April 2019, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Small remarks which could, maybe, contribute to the clarification of the use:

The cone/nob made of black clay is, in fact, relatively breakable. The small red bids inserted in it are not bids made of glass etc - it is seed of some tree and in many cases they already dropped out (this does not seem to be durable command baton like eg mace/bulava) It is really long time and I don´t remember well already, but I heard the clay and seeds had some meaning for Mahdist monks...

Oh, so then this is what Zirngibl means by "decorated with poisonous seeds". I was not quite sure how to interpret that part when I read the text to the illustration in Panga Na Visu, but your explanation makes perfect sense now.

So I guess what we have are dancing spears, meant for ritualistic use by fervent dervishes in Sudan.

Kubur · 23rd April 2019, 08:18 PM

As Jim says (it's not a quotation) "it's amazing what we can learn on this forum"...

I'm convinced that these batons or maces were used by dervishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

So I guess what we have are dancing spears, meant for ritualistic use by fervent dervishes in Sudan.

Teodor I don't think that you should dissociate religious use and military use.
These objects are not maces, not spears either...
You can find many books and articles about the role of the dervishes and sufis in the Sudanese armies. The mahdi was a sufi. You can find a lot of books on the role of sufis and dervishes in the ottoman army and also in the Safavid army.

We should be humbles and it's already a big step to say that these batons were used by dervishes...
During the battles to command units, for prayers before the battles or to bury the dead like in the Ottoman armies...who knows...

20th April 2019, 09:48 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Sudanese Command Batons Here is a somewhat unusual item - based on a paper by Stephane Pradnies from 2016, titled "A Late Military Use of the Sphero-conical in the 19th Century Sudan", I believe it to be two Sudanese command batons from the 19th century. You can find the paper in Academia.edu, and these look very similar to the item shown in Fig. 2. According to Pradnies , the small baton has provenance as a trophy, collected following the battle of Navarino in 1827 when the Egyptian fleet was destroyed during the war that led to the independence of Greece from the Ottoman Empire. The collection of various trophies with Eastern African origin from the Egyptian Corps that were fighting on the Ottoman side as Ottoman vassals would perhaps also explain the gile in Elgood's book. Per Pradines, there were two such batons collected, one of which is in a private collection in the UK, and another one in a private collection in Greece. They consisted of short woodens shafts, with a small spearhead in one end and a sphero-conical vessel in the other. Unfortunately, one of mine has lost the sphero-conical vessel, and at some point it looks like someone tried to combine the two into one with some brass wire. The use of these sphero-conical vessels is also a point of debate, but their mostly likely use was as standardized containers used during the Indian Ocean trade dating back to the time of the Mamelukes in the late Middle Ages. Again, all of this info is based on Pradines' paper. Have you seen similar items? These tend to appear as pairs, as opposed to single items, and I also wonder what the significance of that would be. Teodor Attached Images

21st April 2019, 08:17 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Thank you for your comments Jim. For reference, I am attaching a picture of the baton, pictured in Mr. Pradines' paper. Attached Images

22nd April 2019, 12:04 PM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi, Acc. what Mr Manfred Zirngibl told me years ago, this should be a staff of Sudanese priests. I don´t know if it is true - or not.... Maybe there is picture with explanation in Pangana visu book (?) with explanation. Enclosed is piece from my collection (I only have this wrong picture with me) Attached Images

22nd April 2019, 12:55 PM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Quotation from the book Panga na visu + picture Attached Images

22nd April 2019, 01:30 PM	#6
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	and along the same lines , this is what I have in my collection ... I posted a picture of this some time ago and the conclusion was that it was a Sudanese dancing spear and that the coins were those of Abdulhamid II ( 1842-1918 ) . Attached Images Last edited by thinreadline; 22nd April 2019 at 01:35 PM. Reason: ADDING INFO

21st April 2019, 06:49 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	These are really interesting Teodor, , and while I cannot add anything I just wanted to note I never had any idea that the Sudanese used command batons. I think that most of my focus has been on Mahdist and post Omdurman forces and weaponry, and by this time other means of identifying leaders of the varying units were used. I could understand specified Sudanese association with these captured in Ottoman action against Greece in that early time as Ottoman Egypt had nominally taken Sudan in 1821, and they surely used Sudanese forces in degree. What is confusing is the title of this paper (which I have not been able to access yet) suggests the use of the sphero-conical items in 19th c Sudan but it is unclear how they were used. Here attached to these mysterious batons is puzzling as it would seem there is some symbolic convention intended (the use of these as grenades etc. in ancient to Mamluk period contexts) much in the way a gorget is intended as a badge of rank or distinction. I look forward to getting this article as the only article I have accessed by this author pretty much asks similar questions but no answers. It would seem that Ottomans might have adopted the baton use as noted as they adopted many European military notions, which in turn were in many cases from traditions into antiquity, but these are most curious.

22nd April 2019, 09:07 PM	#7
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	I assume this is the sort of thing being discussed. I've wondered for some time what it is: something had obviously dropped off the end, leaving me puzzled what the item was. Without this sort of discussion forum I might never have had any idea as to its identification. Attached Images

23rd April 2019, 07:39 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Yes LJ, this is another example of these objects. I just read the text to the illustrations in Panga Na Visu and if my poor German has not failed me, the use Zirngibl suggests for these Cult spears is a little out there: per Zirngibl, these were used during so-called "Cleansing of the Body through Pain" ceremonies by extreme Muslim fanatics to self-inflict wounds and communicate to God that way. The literature quoted as a source is not in the Bibliography. Maybe someone would be familiar with these sources: Fagan, W. Mount Clemens, o. J. Abb. u. Text Nr. 373-380 Pascha, E. o. J. page 109

23rd April 2019, 09:42 AM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Small remarks which could, maybe, contribute to the clarification of the use: The cone/nob made of black clay is, in fact, relatively breakable. The small red bids inserted in it are not bids made of glass etc - it is seed of some tree and in many cases they already dropped out (this does not seem to be durable command baton like eg mace/bulava) It is really long time and I don´t remember well already, but I heard the clay and seeds had some meaning for Mahdist monks...