19th Alberta Dragoons 1908p sword

Will M · 18th December 2022, 02:21 AM

A nicely marked Canadian 1908p sword to the 19th Alberta Dragoons. They performed the last Canadian cavalry charge in history at the Battle of Iwuy on 10 October 1918.

kronckew · 18th December 2022, 05:23 PM

Interesting. Nice sword.

Battle of iwuy 10OCT1918

A bit like the Charge of the Light brigade, Gallant, Courageous, and ultimately futile.

Will M · 18th December 2022, 06:32 PM

Do we celebrate our losses as much as our victories?
Interestingly the inner guard where regimental marks are usually placed shows just a couple pin points and the outside there is a ghost of letters and or numbers. An armourer has professionally removed the previous regimental markings likely before being issued to Canadian troops in the UK.
Canada arrived with the 1890p and 1882p swords and exchanging them for the then new 1908p cavalry sword.

fernando · 18th December 2022, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Interesting. Nice sword.

Battle of iwuy 10OCT1918

A bit like the Charge of the Light brigade, Gallant, Courageous, and ultimately futile.

Gentlemen, remember that the scope of our forum does not reach World Wars period

.

.

Jim McDougall · 18th December 2022, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Gentlemen, remember that the scope of our forum does not reach World Wars period

.

It is truly unfortunate that the history of the sword is not seen as transcending the calendar. While the sword as a weapon had of course become 'obsolete' by the mid 19th century, they were still actively used, as seen here, well into the 20th century. I cannot even name the numerous cultures and contexts in which this is the case.
There was no terminus post quem for the weapon form itself, even various types continued production and use in their 19th century (and sometimes earlier) form well into the 20th.

This sword posted, the British 1908 cavalry, saw good use in battle, as shown here with this brilliant gallantry of this Canadian regiment. In Mesopotamia, the British used the M1908 as well during WWI, and the commanding officer, General Allenby was cited as saying to his cavalry,
"..men, you may well go into battle without your trousers...but you WILL NOT go without your sword!!!"
The sword became colloquially known then as the "Allenby sword".

The American counterpart was the M1913 Patton, also with large bowl guard. These had the same superiority as ironically, the ultimate cavalry sword, which was reached just as the use of the sword officially ended.
Gen. George Patton literally had tears in his eyes as he collected these from his men as his beloved horse cavalry became armored vehicles.

So I wanted to end the discussion having noted the history angle, which is important as to me, the weapons are icons of history, which seems to exceed chronological definition....such as medieval, renaissance etc. Naturally, the set parameters of this forum must be observed so I close accordingly.

*finis*

fernando · 18th December 2022, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is truly unfortunate that the history of the sword is not seen as transcending the calendar. While the sword as a weapon had of course become 'obsolete' by the mid 19th century, they were still actively used, as seen here, well into the 20th century. I cannot even name the numerous cultures and contexts in which this is the case.

You are right, Jim; in action until just "the other day". We just don't get there

.

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2022, 01:29 AM

In accord with avoiding furthering this discussion here, I am posting the US M1913 cavalry sword I wanted to post as a comparison, to the MISC forum.

David R · 19th December 2022, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Gentlemen, remember that the scope of our forum does not reach World Wars period

.

.

Does this need rethinking, and perhaps making the cutoff one hundred years ago, 1922 or perhaps more logically 1914 as that's when the old world went up in flames.

fernando · 19th December 2022, 06:36 PM

Options David !
We have chosen to focus more on arms antiquity rather than on modern wars.

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2022, 07:15 PM

Noted. The primary concern when this forum was initiated in 2008 was that opening the discussion criteria to European arms of all times and to include firearms, ordnance, polearms, etc. might open the doors to more modern 'militaria'.
The idea of bayonets and misc , weapons of the modern wars in WWI & WWII which might even lead into nazi items etc. was concerning as detracting from the antiquarian discussions.

As has been described, these concerns are often confining as many weapons of earlier periods up to 1898 ended up being used, and in many cases still being produced after 1900, even into 20s and 30s.
In studying the history of many of these kinds of weapons forms, their scope of historical data often transcends the fixed terminus post quem of 1900.
The problem here of course becomes that the 'complete' history of the weapon form and its use comes to an abrupt and incomplete halt.

There is no 'volume II' to continue study of the form, nor proper venue for same, and any extenuation of such circumstances is held to endanger forum integrity by opening doors for more such situations.

This is truly a dilemma, and I decided to continue the discussion on M1913 Patton sword in the misc. forum, where the latitude is non confining as this is indeed a misc. category (non applicable in the other forums).

While this is more of a stopgap solution, I hope members who have ideas for solution might present them but privately to moderators, with whom the resolution is in their charge. I would hope to see this dilemma resolved constructively, and trust we will all follow that.

18th December 2022, 02:21 AM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	19th Alberta Dragoons 1908p sword A nicely marked Canadian 1908p sword to the 19th Alberta Dragoons. They performed the last Canadian cavalry charge in history at the Battle of Iwuy on 10 October 1918. Attached Images

18th December 2022, 06:32 PM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Do we celebrate our losses as much as our victories? Interestingly the inner guard where regimental marks are usually placed shows just a couple pin points and the outside there is a ghost of letters and or numbers. An armourer has professionally removed the previous regimental markings likely before being issued to Canadian troops in the UK. Canada arrived with the 1890p and 1882p swords and exchanging them for the then new 1908p cavalry sword. Attached Images

18th December 2022, 05:23 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Interesting. Nice sword. Battle of iwuy 10OCT1918 A bit like the Charge of the Light brigade, Gallant, Courageous, and ultimately futile.

19th December 2022, 01:29 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	In accord with avoiding furthering this discussion here, I am posting the US M1913 cavalry sword I wanted to post as a comparison, to the MISC forum.

19th December 2022, 06:36 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Options David ! We have chosen to focus more on arms antiquity rather than on modern wars.

19th December 2022, 07:15 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Noted. The primary concern when this forum was initiated in 2008 was that opening the discussion criteria to European arms of all times and to include firearms, ordnance, polearms, etc. might open the doors to more modern 'militaria'. The idea of bayonets and misc , weapons of the modern wars in WWI & WWII which might even lead into nazi items etc. was concerning as detracting from the antiquarian discussions. As has been described, these concerns are often confining as many weapons of earlier periods up to 1898 ended up being used, and in many cases still being produced after 1900, even into 20s and 30s. In studying the history of many of these kinds of weapons forms, their scope of historical data often transcends the fixed terminus post quem of 1900. The problem here of course becomes that the 'complete' history of the weapon form and its use comes to an abrupt and incomplete halt. There is no 'volume II' to continue study of the form, nor proper venue for same, and any extenuation of such circumstances is held to endanger forum integrity by opening doors for more such situations. This is truly a dilemma, and I decided to continue the discussion on M1913 Patton sword in the misc. forum, where the latitude is non confining as this is indeed a misc. category (non applicable in the other forums). While this is more of a stopgap solution, I hope members who have ideas for solution might present them but privately to moderators, with whom the resolution is in their charge. I would hope to see this dilemma resolved constructively, and trust we will all follow that.