Moro Kris

rasdan · 21st October 2005, 07:05 AM

Hi guys,

Can u please comment on the age and origin of this kris? I'm thinking of sulu. Blade is laminated and the edges with twisted rod at centre. I dont know how many twisted does it consists. Anybody can help on this? Harsrinuksmo's encyclopedia describes the tunggakkan feature at the ganja is post 1820's but this one looks older (?). Could it be an 18th century piece? Heres the pictures before and after cleaning. (the pictures with blue background are post cleaning)

Btw, im not sure if the tip is really 3 cm wide. I havent recieve the item.

Thanks,
Rasdan

Mick · 21st October 2005, 04:24 PM

Rasdan

You have a true double twisted rod center piece blade versus the etched fake models of this work. Two indicators of the real work exist on your blade. One is the area of the cold shut between the two rods. The other is the fact that the twist area extends beyond the central area and into the edge area a bit. The etched pieces have a clear line of demarcation betweeen these two areas which is somtimes contained by an inlayed strip along this edge.

nechesh · 21st October 2005, 04:37 PM

Interesting blade Rasdan. I don't think it is as old as 18thC, but i'm no expert. I don't recall ever seeing what have been called 18thC kris with those piercings at the gangya. BTW, nice job so far on you restoration efforts, especially at the gangya where you seem to have been able to sucessfully straighten it and close the big gap on the diagonal.

Bill · 21st October 2005, 06:06 PM

Great sword. I would guess that this is an example of a keris smith making a kris. Being that the blade is approx. 23", it has a rectangular tang, the holes & file work, & the 45 degree gangya; I would guess 1st half of 19thC. I have found nothing to suggest that the "Moro" of the PI ever made keris. I have found that the kris was in wide use in 18thC Celebes. With the Bugis scattering from Celebes under Dutch control, it would be hard to place its origin. I would feel confident that where ever this sword came from, that it has Bugis influence. As it seems the Bugis had a thing for 18-20" swords and the Moro perfered, for the most part, 22-24" blades; the Philippines seems to be logical. Great example, likely a cross-over between groups. It may have once had a deep etch and then polished between the fuller lines & edge. I'd toss the stirup.

rasdan · 21st October 2005, 08:09 PM

Hi guys,

Thanks for your reply. However i am highly unfamiliar with this type of lamination. still re-studying articles of vikingswords etc.

Hi Mick,

What do u mean by the cold shut between the two rods? Is it the crack at the centre of the kris at the base?

Hi Nechesh,

Yes, i also thinks the the piercing style at the ganja is rather new, perhaps in the 19th C. What strikes me that this one is kindda old is that the metal that is used in this blade it seems that it is a bit "grainy".

Btw, the restoration works is not done by me. It is done in Indonesia. If its by me.. i think the ganya would already be lost by now.

Hi Bill,

I think origin is the hardest part of determining the provenance of a keris especially without its propper fittings. Yes, there's a hunch in me that this a bugis origin keris, but i had no proof. What makes me think that is the style of the pamor welding and the ruggedness look of the blade and steel being used. The stirrup is new and will surely be removed when i get the piece.

Best regards,
Rasdan

Mick · 21st October 2005, 08:53 PM

Rasdan

Yes that's it. This occurs when the smith had finished (he thinks) welding up the blade and then finds this fault in the weld when he begins the cutting and finishing of the blade. He removes the part of the weld that covered this fault and is faced with the choice of gong back to the forge (possibly screwing up the piece) or accepting what he has in hand. When the fault is not bad, that is structuraly unsound it is only a blemish on the final product. This will probably cause a reduction in the final price of the piece, but it is not a catastrophe such as when this fault goes all the way through the blade.
The faults on your piece do not seem to go all the way through (based on one view of the pesi) but the are pretty deep and if they were longer in llength (say twice what they are) would probably effect the use (and survival) of the piece in actual warfare.

Battara · 22nd October 2005, 04:26 AM

The Moro did in fact do twist core damascus like this, but it seems to have been at an earlier period. I have noticed that as time moves toward the 20c the ability gets lost or not of intererst anymore. Also, I would tend to go with Cato in that the earlier the period, the smaller the kris becomes.

kai · 24th October 2005, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

I have found that the kris was in wide use in 18thC Celebes.

Bill, I don't doubt that but could you cite some references? Or, even better, share pics of any (possibly provenanced?) examples you may have? Thanks a lot!

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 24th October 2005, 03:28 PM

Kai, I have never found any provenanced kris of the Bugis. There is the accounts of David Woodard, who was shipwrecked for 2.5 years on Celebes in the late 18C. There is also vague Portuguese & English accounts. E. Banks has given his opinion that the kris was once made in Brunei, but he falls short of any proof and his research was by interview of locals in the late 1930's. Banks did print plates of several kris that of interest; the elephant is quite simular in all six, half have the diminutive kakatua that are simular to the Indo/Malay sundang, & 3 appear to have the raised center etch. I would think there is documented or provenanced Riau & Malay Sundang, but that is only speculation. I have read quite a bit on the early PI groups & Celebes groups and fall short of any proof of the origin of the kris, it is merely my opinion that the kris originated with the Bugis.

zelbone · 24th October 2005, 04:41 PM

I'm with Kai....looks Maranao to me.

MABAGANI · 24th October 2005, 06:30 PM

If you've never found a provenanced kris of the Bugis, why is your opinion that it originated with the Bugis. There is overwhelming examples of kris originating throughout the Moro regions of Mindanao and Sulu. Leaf, you repeatedly make it appear as if each Malay or Indonesian group could not have adapted their own form when keris diaspora occurred. The kris is just the adapted form used in Mindanao and Sulu, so why do you continue denying them their cultural place as if you have some personal prejudice, imho?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Kai, I have never found any provenanced kris of the Bugis. There is the accounts of David Woodard, who was shipwrecked for 2.5 years on Celebes in the late 18C. There is also vague Portuguese & English accounts. E. Banks has given his opinion that the kris was once made in Brunei, but he falls short of any proof and his research was by interview of locals in the late 1930's. Banks did print plates of several kris that of interest; the elephant is quite simular in all six, half have the diminutive kakatua that are simular to the Indo/Malay sundang, & 3 appear to have the raised center etch. I would think there is documented or provenanced Riau & Malay Sundang, but that is only speculation. I have read quite a bit on the early PI groups & Celebes groups and fall short of any proof of the origin of the kris, it is merely my opinion that the kris originated with the Bugis.

nechesh · 25th October 2005, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Kai, I have never found any provenanced kris of the Bugis. There is the accounts of David Woodard, who was shipwrecked for 2.5 years on Celebes in the late 18C. There is also vague Portuguese & English accounts. E. Banks has given his opinion that the kris was once made in Brunei, but he falls short of any proof and his research was by interview of locals in the late 1930's. Banks did print plates of several kris that of interest; the elephant is quite simular in all six, half have the diminutive kakatua that are simular to the Indo/Malay sundang, & 3 appear to have the raised center etch. I would think there is documented or provenanced Riau & Malay Sundang, but that is only speculation. I have read quite a bit on the early PI groups & Celebes groups and fall short of any proof of the origin of the kris, it is merely my opinion that the kris originated with the Bugis.

Bill, Thanks for clearing this up that this is just your unsubstantiated opinion. I have yet to read the Woodward account. Does he describe the Bugis swords he encountered in enough detail to be sure they were carrying kris blades? Are they described as straight, wavy or both? Any description of the trunk area, gangya or any other blade details?

kai · 24th October 2005, 09:37 AM

Congrats, Rasdan - that's definitely a keeper!

Just adding my 0.2 cents:
This blade looks 100% Maranao to me. I don't see anything which would indicate Tausug (much less Buginese) influence. What did I miss?

Safe of the twisted core forging, are there any hints for it being older than, say, 2nd half of 19th century?

Regards,
Kai

21st October 2005, 07:05 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Moro Kris Hi guys, Can u please comment on the age and origin of this kris? I'm thinking of sulu. Blade is laminated and the edges with twisted rod at centre. I dont know how many twisted does it consists. Anybody can help on this? Harsrinuksmo's encyclopedia describes the tunggakkan feature at the ganja is post 1820's but this one looks older (?). Could it be an 18th century piece? Heres the pictures before and after cleaning. (the pictures with blue background are post cleaning) Btw, im not sure if the tip is really 3 cm wide. I havent recieve the item. Thanks, Rasdan Attached Images

21st October 2005, 08:53 PM	#6
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Rasdan Yes that's it. This occurs when the smith had finished (he thinks) welding up the blade and then finds this fault in the weld when he begins the cutting and finishing of the blade. He removes the part of the weld that covered this fault and is faced with the choice of gong back to the forge (possibly screwing up the piece) or accepting what he has in hand. When the fault is not bad, that is structuraly unsound it is only a blemish on the final product. This will probably cause a reduction in the final price of the piece, but it is not a catastrophe such as when this fault goes all the way through the blade. The faults on your piece do not seem to go all the way through (based on one view of the pesi) but the are pretty deep and if they were longer in llength (say twice what they are) would probably effect the use (and survival) of the piece in actual warfare. Last edited by Mick; 21st October 2005 at 09:06 PM.

21st October 2005, 04:24 PM	#2
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Rasdan You have a true double twisted rod center piece blade versus the etched fake models of this work. Two indicators of the real work exist on your blade. One is the area of the cold shut between the two rods. The other is the fact that the twist area extends beyond the central area and into the edge area a bit. The etched pieces have a clear line of demarcation betweeen these two areas which is somtimes contained by an inlayed strip along this edge.

21st October 2005, 04:37 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Interesting blade Rasdan. I don't think it is as old as 18thC, but i'm no expert. I don't recall ever seeing what have been called 18thC kris with those piercings at the gangya. BTW, nice job so far on you restoration efforts, especially at the gangya where you seem to have been able to sucessfully straighten it and close the big gap on the diagonal.

21st October 2005, 06:06 PM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Great sword. I would guess that this is an example of a keris smith making a kris. Being that the blade is approx. 23", it has a rectangular tang, the holes & file work, & the 45 degree gangya; I would guess 1st half of 19thC. I have found nothing to suggest that the "Moro" of the PI ever made keris. I have found that the kris was in wide use in 18thC Celebes. With the Bugis scattering from Celebes under Dutch control, it would be hard to place its origin. I would feel confident that where ever this sword came from, that it has Bugis influence. As it seems the Bugis had a thing for 18-20" swords and the Moro perfered, for the most part, 22-24" blades; the Philippines seems to be logical. Great example, likely a cross-over between groups. It may have once had a deep etch and then polished between the fuller lines & edge. I'd toss the stirup.

21st October 2005, 08:09 PM	#5
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi guys, Thanks for your reply. However i am highly unfamiliar with this type of lamination. still re-studying articles of vikingswords etc. Hi Mick, What do u mean by the cold shut between the two rods? Is it the crack at the centre of the kris at the base? Hi Nechesh, Yes, i also thinks the the piercing style at the ganja is rather new, perhaps in the 19th C. What strikes me that this one is kindda old is that the metal that is used in this blade it seems that it is a bit "grainy". Btw, the restoration works is not done by me. It is done in Indonesia. If its by me.. i think the ganya would already be lost by now. Hi Bill, I think origin is the hardest part of determining the provenance of a keris especially without its propper fittings. Yes, there's a hunch in me that this a bugis origin keris, but i had no proof. What makes me think that is the style of the pamor welding and the ruggedness look of the blade and steel being used. The stirrup is new and will surely be removed when i get the piece. Best regards, Rasdan

22nd October 2005, 04:26 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	The Moro did in fact do twist core damascus like this, but it seems to have been at an earlier period. I have noticed that as time moves toward the 20c the ability gets lost or not of intererst anymore. Also, I would tend to go with Cato in that the earlier the period, the smaller the kris becomes.

24th October 2005, 03:28 PM	#9
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Kai, I have never found any provenanced kris of the Bugis. There is the accounts of David Woodard, who was shipwrecked for 2.5 years on Celebes in the late 18C. There is also vague Portuguese & English accounts. E. Banks has given his opinion that the kris was once made in Brunei, but he falls short of any proof and his research was by interview of locals in the late 1930's. Banks did print plates of several kris that of interest; the elephant is quite simular in all six, half have the diminutive kakatua that are simular to the Indo/Malay sundang, & 3 appear to have the raised center etch. I would think there is documented or provenanced Riau & Malay Sundang, but that is only speculation. I have read quite a bit on the early PI groups & Celebes groups and fall short of any proof of the origin of the kris, it is merely my opinion that the kris originated with the Bugis.

24th October 2005, 04:41 PM	#10
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	I'm with Kai....looks Maranao to me.

24th October 2005, 09:37 AM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,252	Congrats, Rasdan - that's definitely a keeper! Just adding my 0.2 cents: This blade looks 100% Maranao to me. I don't see anything which would indicate Tausug (much less Buginese) influence. What did I miss? Safe of the twisted core forging, are there any hints for it being older than, say, 2nd half of 19th century? Regards, Kai