I know my Pappenheims...

shayde78 · 20th March 2020, 02:38 AM

...actually, I don't. Despite knowing one by sight, I realized my standard references had very little information on these. Even this esteemed forum only produced two threads when I searched for 'Pappenheim'. So, it was with very little knowledge that I took a chance and bid on a lot of swords that included this item identified as a "reproduction basket hilt sword".

So, after a long absence from this forum (I owe some of you responses for your helpful feedback to my now year-old last posts), I ask you good folks if you think it was worth the chance. I had only 3-4 poor pictures to go by in the description of the lot. Still, I could just make out a possible maker's name (C L E M E N) on the ricasso. The condition of the grip, the oxidation on the bars of the hilt, the piercing of the plate guard, the period correct pommel (as best I can tell)...tell me, did I get seduced by my own wishful thinking, or did I get a steal??

M ELEY · 20th March 2020, 03:52 AM

Wow! Shayde, I'm no expert, but everything looks legit to me! If it is Historismus, they did a bang-up job at softening the edges and placing the darker patina exactly where you would expect it. In any case, if it is a 19th c. knock-off, it's top notch. If real (which i suspect), you hit a home run, my friend! Now I'll step back and let the expects comment-

CSinTX · 20th March 2020, 03:45 PM

I think you did good!

fernando · 20th March 2020, 04:25 PM

Well, if this sword smith's intent was that of a deceiver, he would have better avoid to engrave that CLEMEN on the blade. For a newbie (like me) it is easier to suspect this is not the way CLEMENS STAM marked his blades than judge on the irreproachable technique this sword is made.
All this said by an ignaro, of course

.
A member like Jasper Smith would naturally have no doubts about it.

shayde78 · 20th March 2020, 05:12 PM

Thanks for the feedback so far, chaps.
I agree that seeing a maker's stamp that didn't correspond to a known stamp gave me pause. There may be another mark on the opposite side of the ricaaso, but because the plate guard is still intact, it is harder to see.

I also realized I didn't post any pictures that provide scale. The tiles on the floor of the next picture are each 12"x12". The picture of the hilt in my hand shows the proportions (at 6'4", my hands are not very small).

Also, one more detail that may help - I thought there were areas of delamination in the bars of the guard. Specifically, those that make up the area surrounding where the missing plate guard would be. Upon closer inspection, I believe this is an intentional groove into which the plate would be secured. See the third picture. Thoughts? Does this correspond to actual period construction practice, or just well constructed recreation?

ulfberth · 20th March 2020, 11:32 PM

Hello , it has one guard plate and the knucklebow missing, but it is one hundred % Original and it is a popular model rapier to, so congratulations !

ulfberth · 21st March 2020, 12:18 AM

its obviously a stabbing blade , can you tell me the total length including the guard , it looks like the blade is a bit short. Despite the name on the ricasso the style and geometry of the blade looks Italian.

20th March 2020, 02:38 AM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	I know my Pappenheims... ...actually, I don't. Despite knowing one by sight, I realized my standard references had very little information on these. Even this esteemed forum only produced two threads when I searched for 'Pappenheim'. So, it was with very little knowledge that I took a chance and bid on a lot of swords that included this item identified as a "reproduction basket hilt sword". So, after a long absence from this forum (I owe some of you responses for your helpful feedback to my now year-old last posts), I ask you good folks if you think it was worth the chance. I had only 3-4 poor pictures to go by in the description of the lot. Still, I could just make out a possible maker's name (C L E M E N) on the ricasso. The condition of the grip, the oxidation on the bars of the hilt, the piercing of the plate guard, the period correct pommel (as best I can tell)...tell me, did I get seduced by my own wishful thinking, or did I get a steal?? Attached Images

20th March 2020, 05:12 PM	#5
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thanks for the feedback so far, chaps. I agree that seeing a maker's stamp that didn't correspond to a known stamp gave me pause. There may be another mark on the opposite side of the ricaaso, but because the plate guard is still intact, it is harder to see. I also realized I didn't post any pictures that provide scale. The tiles on the floor of the next picture are each 12"x12". The picture of the hilt in my hand shows the proportions (at 6'4", my hands are not very small). Also, one more detail that may help - I thought there were areas of delamination in the bars of the guard. Specifically, those that make up the area surrounding where the missing plate guard would be. Upon closer inspection, I believe this is an intentional groove into which the plate would be secured. See the third picture. Thoughts? Does this correspond to actual period construction practice, or just well constructed recreation? Attached Images Last edited by shayde78; 20th March 2020 at 06:44 PM.

20th March 2020, 03:52 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Wow! Shayde, I'm no expert, but everything looks legit to me! If it is Historismus, they did a bang-up job at softening the edges and placing the darker patina exactly where you would expect it. In any case, if it is a 19th c. knock-off, it's top notch. If real (which i suspect), you hit a home run, my friend! Now I'll step back and let the expects comment-

20th March 2020, 03:45 PM	#3
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	I think you did good!

20th March 2020, 04:25 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well, if this sword smith's intent was that of a deceiver, he would have better avoid to engrave that CLEMEN on the blade. For a newbie (like me) it is easier to suspect this is not the way CLEMENS STAM marked his blades than judge on the irreproachable technique this sword is made. All this said by an ignaro, of course . A member like Jasper Smith would naturally have no doubts about it.

20th March 2020, 11:32 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hello , it has one guard plate and the knucklebow missing, but it is one hundred % Original and it is a popular model rapier to, so congratulations !

21st March 2020, 12:18 AM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	its obviously a stabbing blade , can you tell me the total length including the guard , it looks like the blade is a bit short. Despite the name on the ricasso the style and geometry of the blade looks Italian.