African Sword for ID and comment

Iliad · 5th December 2012, 04:54 AM

Good Morning/Evening all,
A collector friend is in process of dispersing his collection, and knowing that I have an incurable passion for collecting edged weapons, came to my home with a bag of goodies. I purchased 15!! SHE wanted to know how much I paid for them, SHE is planning to buy something for herself to an equal value! I keep telling her that I am not SPENDING money, I am INVESTING it! SHE is not convinced. Sigh
Anyway, here are pics of an African sword with a pierced blade; can anyone tell me what part of Africa it comes from?
Best,
Brian

Atlantia · 5th December 2012, 10:39 AM

Hi Brian,

This type was the subject of some discussion some time ago.
I'll link you to a couple of threads to see for yourself.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12918
There is a sword like yours in post 21.

Also:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2333&

Just to add that although the dagger forms are fairly common, the swords like yours don't seem to appear anywhere near as frequently.
The one you show seems to be in great condition and the pierced blade and Crocodile design are very attractive.
A nice example!

Best
Gene

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2012, 05:00 PM

Brian, you've done it again! Outstanding example of a distinct and indiginous sword of the Northern Sudan, which is typically associated with Dunqulah (Dongola) on the banks of the Nile. I have seen these in context of well provenanced arms of the Mahdist period and the Caliphate, as well as so indicated in other references. It seems the pierced decoration of the crocodile and other motif is characteristic.

These regions in ancient times were Nubia, and in later times actually became part of Egypt under Muhammed Ali Pasha in 1820 after his invasion of Sudan. It is generally held that the Mahdi himself actually was from these regions. During the Sudan campaigns Kitchener won a victory at Dongola prior to Omdurman in 1898. This may explain the presence of these among the kaskaras and various other arms captured in these campaigns.

It is most interesting that the rather unique pommel cap seems to appear on the weapons described in von Zonnefeld.While this would suggest a somewhat dramatic misidentification, I think it is important to remember that the host weapons which influenced these ethnographic forms often were carried through varying entrepots traversing vast segments of the trade routes. Therefore it is not too surprising to see unusual convergent similarities in remarkably distant cultural spheres.

The crocodile is key in totemic and symbolic character in Nilotic culture but most typically is seen in the hide being used on hilt grips and scabbards. It seems this pierced version is unique in its being a depiction rather than anatomical elements used. The familiar flared scabbard end of the kaskara mounts have long been thought to represent the crocodile head, but reception to that perception is not necessarily entirely accepted.

Nicely done Brian,
All the best,
Jim

Gene, excellent links to those earlier threads, and its great to see these archived resources used so perfectly, thank you! Looks like Lew pretty well nailed this ID in one of those threads!

ariel · 5th December 2012, 11:02 PM

Ha!
This is an excellent investment! SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED is well advised to admire your financial acumen.
Tell her this is just like buying stock in Apple 30 years ago. When you sell it, she will be able to buy herself the entire set of jewels from the British Royal Crown.

Good luck!

Iliad · 6th December 2012, 08:32 PM

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the replies. We will soon be taking delivery of a new electric stove (cooker) for the kitchen! Darn it, these swords and daggers have been more expensive than I anticipated!
Best,
Brian

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2012, 09:29 PM

glad gene and i could help brian.

5th December 2012, 04:54 AM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	African Sword for ID and comment Good Morning/Evening all, A collector friend is in process of dispersing his collection, and knowing that I have an incurable passion for collecting edged weapons, came to my home with a bag of goodies. I purchased 15!! SHE wanted to know how much I paid for them, SHE is planning to buy something for herself to an equal value! I keep telling her that I am not SPENDING money, I am INVESTING it! SHE is not convinced. Sigh Anyway, here are pics of an African sword with a pierced blade; can anyone tell me what part of Africa it comes from? Best, Brian Attached Images

5th December 2012, 05:00 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,894	Brian, you've done it again! Outstanding example of a distinct and indiginous sword of the Northern Sudan, which is typically associated with Dunqulah (Dongola) on the banks of the Nile. I have seen these in context of well provenanced arms of the Mahdist period and the Caliphate, as well as so indicated in other references. It seems the pierced decoration of the crocodile and other motif is characteristic. These regions in ancient times were Nubia, and in later times actually became part of Egypt under Muhammed Ali Pasha in 1820 after his invasion of Sudan. It is generally held that the Mahdi himself actually was from these regions. During the Sudan campaigns Kitchener won a victory at Dongola prior to Omdurman in 1898. This may explain the presence of these among the kaskaras and various other arms captured in these campaigns. It is most interesting that the rather unique pommel cap seems to appear on the weapons described in von Zonnefeld.While this would suggest a somewhat dramatic misidentification, I think it is important to remember that the host weapons which influenced these ethnographic forms often were carried through varying entrepots traversing vast segments of the trade routes. Therefore it is not too surprising to see unusual convergent similarities in remarkably distant cultural spheres. The crocodile is key in totemic and symbolic character in Nilotic culture but most typically is seen in the hide being used on hilt grips and scabbards. It seems this pierced version is unique in its being a depiction rather than anatomical elements used. The familiar flared scabbard end of the kaskara mounts have long been thought to represent the crocodile head, but reception to that perception is not necessarily entirely accepted. Nicely done Brian, All the best, Jim Gene, excellent links to those earlier threads, and its great to see these archived resources used so perfectly, thank you! Looks like Lew pretty well nailed this ID in one of those threads! Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th December 2012 at 01:01 AM.

5th December 2012, 10:39 AM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Brian, This type was the subject of some discussion some time ago. I'll link you to a couple of threads to see for yourself. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12918 There is a sword like yours in post 21. Also: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2333& Just to add that although the dagger forms are fairly common, the swords like yours don't seem to appear anywhere near as frequently. The one you show seems to be in great condition and the pierced blade and Crocodile design are very attractive. A nice example! Best Gene

5th December 2012, 11:02 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ha! This is an excellent investment! SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED is well advised to admire your financial acumen. Tell her this is just like buying stock in Apple 30 years ago. When you sell it, she will be able to buy herself the entire set of jewels from the British Royal Crown. Good luck!

6th December 2012, 08:32 PM	#5
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Gentlemen, Thank you for the replies. We will soon be taking delivery of a new electric stove (cooker) for the kitchen! Darn it, these swords and daggers have been more expensive than I anticipated! Best, Brian

6th December 2012, 09:29 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,894	glad gene and i could help brian.