Keris Found From A shipwreck

samsol · 25th March 2005, 09:25 AM

During excavation in 'Wanli' shipwreck(wanli is the project name and not for the ship), one keris was found. I believed that Portuegese was hired a Malay as a pilot on the ship before it sunk. The ship was sunk in Malaysian waters around 1630 and a lot of porcelain included kraak ware was found from the ship. Please help me to identify this keris and thank you in advance for your helps.

BluErf · 25th March 2005, 09:49 AM

Hi Samsol,

You need to post some pictures in order for us to help you ID the keris. You can do so using the "Attach Files" function when you post a new message.

Raja Muda · 25th March 2005, 10:13 AM

This is exciting. I've always wondered what a dateable blade from that period would look like

Hope the pictures come up soon

John · 25th March 2005, 05:08 PM

Samsol,

Is that the keris mentioned in this press release?

http://www.terengganutourism.com/press%20release3.htm

Been waiting to see pictures of it and it doesn't seem "long" as mentioned in the releases (described as a "long keris"). What are the measurements? Looks a touch of Bugis?

BluErf · 25th March 2005, 05:45 PM

So far, I've only seen Sumatran kerises with rattan bound around the lower part of the batang. But without seeing the original sampir (corroded away) and the blade, its really a big question mark.

Bill · 25th March 2005, 06:40 PM

Why is it believed that this ship was made in the Philippines? Is these any way to post the X-rays & any dimensions of whatever possible. When first found they were refering to this as a sundang, now a keris, which for all purpose is the same, I guess. Seems from what is available to be more a Moro Kris or Bugis Sundang.

samsol · 26th March 2005, 03:19 AM

Thank you for all coments and views. This is the x-ray film taken by Malaysian Institute For Nuclear Technology Research.

samsol · 26th March 2005, 03:32 AM

this is the picture taken before and after clearance.

Bill · 26th March 2005, 03:55 AM

Thanks for posting the pics. If that is around 33cm, its not all that long. The X-ray makes it look like rattan all the way to the end, as well the X-ray pic makes the sheath look even more Bugis like. Any good sites with details of the work?

BluErf · 26th March 2005, 04:02 AM

The sogokan depan and belakang and the style of the luk made the blade look quite Javanese...

Paul de Souza · 26th March 2005, 04:43 AM

Dear Samsol,

Could you tell us where the wreck is located? It will give a clue as to the Malays on the ship. Also has the nationality of the wreck been identified? Is it Portuguese? Dutch? This too can give a clue as during that time in the 17th Century the Portuguese and Dutch were at each other throats and they had Malay Allies - Johor was very closely allied to the Dutch while some Sumatran States were allied to the Portuguese. So knowing these things can help us with a little pin-pointing.

Was the hilt found? I would assume that you took note of all the items on site - was there any two - three inch statue like carving of wood or ivory near the keris or remnants of it? That would be really interesting to see. Hopefully it's there but mislabeled. That too would be an important clue.

I read the article Bill posted but what makes the interviewee say it's a ship built in the Philippines and by the Portuguese at that. The Portugese may have explored part of the Philippines but I think they never settled there. They went to Ternate (Moluccas) and Ambon - further south - unless he is referring to a Spanish galleon built in the Philippines. But I always thought that the Spanish ships crossing the Pacific were built in Mexico.

Eupu Kumis recommendation is really good - The Karsten book - it's really great in giving us a window into the keris of the 16 - 17th century. But - Empu Kumis - why do you say we don't really know what the javanese blades look like. If Karsten is an example of Keris in the 17th century I think we have a good view. The keris of the 17th century look broader and much studier than present day keris. In fact some of the pieces in Karsten - If I did not know their origin, I would swear are Peninsular pieces - which leave me the theory that Malay and Balinese keris give a more accurate view of what the old keris are like in that given that the Malay world and Bali was in conflict till the early 20th century - there was much less modification to the battle-worthiness of keris design as compared to Java which was pacified by the Dutch from the Early 18th century. empu Kumis - remember the Sendai keris in Japan.

The bottom of the sampir of the keris do match the examples in Karsten and what is interesting is that only the examples identified as Markarssar (The Bugis) in Karsten have the Rattan. Given the fact that at that time they were active competitors with the Dutch - they would have helped the Portuguese once in a while so we could be seeing an early bugis piece - but it should not distract from the fact that it could also be Malay. What is interesting is that present keris with Malay style sampir and dress but with rattan at the bottom are consider work of the Bugis dispora or very heavily influenced by the Bugis. You don't see much rattan in pieces from Suluwesi now.

We have a really great item here. The keris is a lok 13 - though this keris seems to have more slender proportions than those in Karsten. Very interesting.

Bill · 26th March 2005, 05:45 AM

This is from the link John posted; {Department director-general Datuk Dr Adi Taha believed the ship belonged to the Portuguese and was heading from China to either Johor, Malacca or Batavia (present-day Jakarta).

He said this was based on the discovery of two broken pieces of a square porcelain bottle with the Portuguese coat-of-arms painted in cobalt blue.} I would think this would only mean that the ship was heading for a Portuguese Port, would think the porcelain would have to of been "ordered" & prepared for shipment previously. If the cannon are Portuguese they could have been gifts, trade, or provided for a ship that is sailing for Portuguese interest. If the ship is proven to be made in the PI, it doesn't seem like a Philippine group would be sailing for the Portuguese, but it is quite possible the Bugis would have had a ship built in the PI, & that they might be sailing for trade with the Portuguese as partner or customer. Will certainly be interesting what will ultimatly be found.

samsol · 26th March 2005, 06:58 AM

Dear Mr Paul de Souza,
The wreck was sunk in Dungun, Terengganu, around 5 nuatica miles from the shore. The wreck was believed as a Portuegese ship .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul de Souza

Dear Samsol,

Could you tell us where the wreck is located? It will give a clue as to the Malays on the ship. Also has the nationality of the wreck been identified? Is it Portuguese? Dutch? This too can give a clue as during that time in the 17th Century the Portuguese and Dutch were at each other throats and they had Malay Allies - Johor was very closely allied to the Dutch while some Sumatran States were allied to the Portuguese. So knowing these things can help us with a little pin-pointing.

Was the hilt found? I would assume that you took note of all the items on site - was there any two - three inch statue like carving of wood or ivory near the keris or remnants of it? That would be really interesting to see. Hopefully it's there but mislabeled. That too would be an important clue.

I read the article Bill posted but what makes the interviewee say it's a ship built in the Philippines and by the Portuguese at that. The Portugese may have explored part of the Philippines but I think they never settled there. They went to Ternate (Moluccas) and Ambon - further south - unless he is referring to a Spanish galleon built in the Philippines. But I always thought that the Spanish ships crossing the Pacific were built in Mexico.

Eupu Kumis recommendation is really good - The Karsten book - it's really great in giving us a window into the keris of the 16 - 17th century. But - Empu Kumis - why do you say we don't really know what the javanese blades look like. If Karsten is an example of Keris in the 17th century I think we have a good view. The keris of the 17th century look broader and much studier than present day keris. In fact some of the pieces in Karsten - If I did not know their origin, I would swear are Peninsular pieces - which leave me the theory that Malay and Balinese keris give a more accurate view of what the old keris are like in that given that the Malay world and Bali was in conflict till the early 20th century - there was much less modification to the battle-worthiness of keris design as compared to Java which was pacified by the Dutch from the Early 18th century. empu Kumis - remember the Sendai keris in Japan.

The bottom of the sampir of the keris do match the examples in Karsten and what is interesting is that only the examples identified as Markarssar (The Bugis) in Karsten have the Rattan. Given the fact that at that time they were active competitors with the Dutch - they would have helped the Portuguese once in a while so we could be seeing an early bugis piece - but it should not distract from the fact that it could also be Malay. What is interesting is that present keris with Malay style sampir and dress but with rattan at the bottom are consider work of the Bugis dispora or very heavily influenced by the Bugis. You don't see much rattan in pieces from Suluwesi now.

We have a really great item here. The keris is a lok 13 - though this keris seems to have more slender proportions than those in Karsten. Very interesting.

empu kumis · 26th March 2005, 09:10 AM

Hello Kerislovers,
Dear Paul,

I don`t have forgotten the keris of Sendai but I said we don`know the kerisses before the 17th cent. All we have are the oral tradition which I do not trust very much. The construct of tangguh has many questions and could only taken as as an circumstantial evidence not as full evidence.

The wooden hull of the ship must be a very clear evidence where the ship was build.

I have forgotten to mention the pictures from the National Museum in Copenhagen.

http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=203

http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=223

http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=224

This pictures are also very important for the handles.

25th March 2005, 09:25 AM	#1
samsol Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: kuala lumpur, malaysia Posts: 4	Keris Found From A shipwreck During excavation in 'Wanli' shipwreck(wanli is the project name and not for the ship), one keris was found. I believed that Portuegese was hired a Malay as a pilot on the ship before it sunk. The ship was sunk in Malaysian waters around 1630 and a lot of porcelain included kraak ware was found from the ship. Please help me to identify this keris and thank you in advance for your helps. Attached Images Last edited by samsol; 25th March 2005 at 10:47 AM. Reason: add pictures

25th March 2005, 10:13 AM	#3
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Keris from Wreck This is exciting. I've always wondered what a dateable blade from that period would look like Hope the pictures come up soon

26th March 2005, 03:19 AM	#7
samsol Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: kuala lumpur, malaysia Posts: 4	x-RAY FILM Thank you for all coments and views. This is the x-ray film taken by Malaysian Institute For Nuclear Technology Research. Attached Images Last edited by samsol; 26th March 2005 at 04:03 AM. Reason: edit size picture

26th March 2005, 03:32 AM	#8
samsol Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: kuala lumpur, malaysia Posts: 4	Measurements of the keris this is the picture taken before and after clearance. Attached Images

25th March 2005, 09:49 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Samsol, You need to post some pictures in order for us to help you ID the keris. You can do so using the "Attach Files" function when you post a new message.

25th March 2005, 05:08 PM	#4
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Samsol, Is that the keris mentioned in this press release? http://www.terengganutourism.com/press%20release3.htm Been waiting to see pictures of it and it doesn't seem "long" as mentioned in the releases (described as a "long keris"). What are the measurements? Looks a touch of Bugis?

25th March 2005, 05:45 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	So far, I've only seen Sumatran kerises with rattan bound around the lower part of the batang. But without seeing the original sampir (corroded away) and the blade, its really a big question mark.

25th March 2005, 06:40 PM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Why is it believed that this ship was made in the Philippines? Is these any way to post the X-rays & any dimensions of whatever possible. When first found they were refering to this as a sundang, now a keris, which for all purpose is the same, I guess. Seems from what is available to be more a Moro Kris or Bugis Sundang.

26th March 2005, 03:55 AM	#9
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Thanks for posting the pics. If that is around 33cm, its not all that long. The X-ray makes it look like rattan all the way to the end, as well the X-ray pic makes the sheath look even more Bugis like. Any good sites with details of the work?

26th March 2005, 04:02 AM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The sogokan depan and belakang and the style of the luk made the blade look quite Javanese...

26th March 2005, 04:43 AM	#11
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	Dear Samsol, Could you tell us where the wreck is located? It will give a clue as to the Malays on the ship. Also has the nationality of the wreck been identified? Is it Portuguese? Dutch? This too can give a clue as during that time in the 17th Century the Portuguese and Dutch were at each other throats and they had Malay Allies - Johor was very closely allied to the Dutch while some Sumatran States were allied to the Portuguese. So knowing these things can help us with a little pin-pointing. Was the hilt found? I would assume that you took note of all the items on site - was there any two - three inch statue like carving of wood or ivory near the keris or remnants of it? That would be really interesting to see. Hopefully it's there but mislabeled. That too would be an important clue. I read the article Bill posted but what makes the interviewee say it's a ship built in the Philippines and by the Portuguese at that. The Portugese may have explored part of the Philippines but I think they never settled there. They went to Ternate (Moluccas) and Ambon - further south - unless he is referring to a Spanish galleon built in the Philippines. But I always thought that the Spanish ships crossing the Pacific were built in Mexico. Eupu Kumis recommendation is really good - The Karsten book - it's really great in giving us a window into the keris of the 16 - 17th century. But - Empu Kumis - why do you say we don't really know what the javanese blades look like. If Karsten is an example of Keris in the 17th century I think we have a good view. The keris of the 17th century look broader and much studier than present day keris. In fact some of the pieces in Karsten - If I did not know their origin, I would swear are Peninsular pieces - which leave me the theory that Malay and Balinese keris give a more accurate view of what the old keris are like in that given that the Malay world and Bali was in conflict till the early 20th century - there was much less modification to the battle-worthiness of keris design as compared to Java which was pacified by the Dutch from the Early 18th century. empu Kumis - remember the Sendai keris in Japan. The bottom of the sampir of the keris do match the examples in Karsten and what is interesting is that only the examples identified as Markarssar (The Bugis) in Karsten have the Rattan. Given the fact that at that time they were active competitors with the Dutch - they would have helped the Portuguese once in a while so we could be seeing an early bugis piece - but it should not distract from the fact that it could also be Malay. What is interesting is that present keris with Malay style sampir and dress but with rattan at the bottom are consider work of the Bugis dispora or very heavily influenced by the Bugis. You don't see much rattan in pieces from Suluwesi now. We have a really great item here. The keris is a lok 13 - though this keris seems to have more slender proportions than those in Karsten. Very interesting.

26th March 2005, 05:45 AM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	This is from the link John posted; {Department director-general Datuk Dr Adi Taha believed the ship belonged to the Portuguese and was heading from China to either Johor, Malacca or Batavia (present-day Jakarta). He said this was based on the discovery of two broken pieces of a square porcelain bottle with the Portuguese coat-of-arms painted in cobalt blue.} I would think this would only mean that the ship was heading for a Portuguese Port, would think the porcelain would have to of been "ordered" & prepared for shipment previously. If the cannon are Portuguese they could have been gifts, trade, or provided for a ship that is sailing for Portuguese interest. If the ship is proven to be made in the PI, it doesn't seem like a Philippine group would be sailing for the Portuguese, but it is quite possible the Bugis would have had a ship built in the PI, & that they might be sailing for trade with the Portuguese as partner or customer. Will certainly be interesting what will ultimatly be found.

26th March 2005, 09:10 AM	#14
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Hello Kerislovers, Dear Paul, I don`t have forgotten the keris of Sendai but I said we don`know the kerisses before the 17th cent. All we have are the oral tradition which I do not trust very much. The construct of tangguh has many questions and could only taken as as an circumstantial evidence not as full evidence. The wooden hull of the ship must be a very clear evidence where the ship was build. I have forgotten to mention the pictures from the National Museum in Copenhagen. http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=203 http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=223 http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=224 This pictures are also very important for the handles.