Wrong allocation ?

Martin Lubojacky · 15th November 2011, 06:01 PM

On November 6, 2011, Meisner-Neumann auction took place in Prague. There were also a few eastern weapons (not 100 % my field), and I am not definitely sure, if they attributed correct countries"
- Small knife in silver sheath with double hook for small animals and tinderbox was described as from Mongolia (I thought it should be Tibet).
- Small dagger with ray skin was attributed to Chad (ray skin in Chad).
- Also I have newer seen Keris with such small wiwes - described as from Borneo (is it real piece or souvenier ?).

Thanks for standpoints, regards,
Martin

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2011, 06:52 PM

Definitely need Lews's input here!
Rayskin in Chad ?????

Iain · 15th November 2011, 07:09 PM

There is a species of freshwater ray in the Benue river... Style of the knife is close enough to fit this area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_stingray

I'm having trouble finding if any freshwater rays exist in Lake Chad. But there are certainly rivers with them around in the right area for this knife.

Stan S. · 15th November 2011, 07:17 PM

Decorations on the first item and the shape of the knife definetely point at Tibet

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2011, 09:12 PM

Thanks so much Iain, had no idea these were in these regions. Naturally with rayskin I think of oriental weapon grips and in some cases those on Eastern European sabres' grips. Of course they were used on British officers grips, but do we know of any other Saharan weapons with this material?
I think of crocodile first or the monitor, but havent seen rayskin.

All best,
Jim

Iain · 15th November 2011, 09:34 PM

Hi Jim,

I don't blame you for thinking of eastern swords.

I can't recall a Sahel weapon I've seen before with rayskin. However from the wikipedia article it appears the Niger stingray is fished heavily and eaten. So I imagine an ample supply of skin was/is available.

The two types of stingray found in fresh water in Africa are both in Western Africa, nothing in Lake Chad.

Unfortunately besides the wikipedia articles I could turn up almost nothing on Google and absolutely nothing weapon related.

An anomaly perhaps, but the resource to get the ray skin certainly seems to be in place. Interestingly the Wikipedia article notes that the Hausa know it as the 'water scorpion'. I wonder if any tribes in the area associated animistic or totemic values to the ray?

Indianajones · 15th November 2011, 09:40 PM

Nice Keris there! Good for cutting crunchy bread and stick it into some cheesefondue!

Am not a keris-collector but would like to own that one; curious what others' opinions are . . .!

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2011, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Jim,

I don't blame you for thinking of eastern swords.

I can't recall a Sahel weapon I've seen before with rayskin. However from the wikipedia article it appears the Niger stingray is fished heavily and eaten. So I imagine an ample supply of skin was/is available.

The two types of stingray found in fresh water in Africa are both in Western Africa, nothing in Lake Chad.

Unfortunately besides the wikipedia articles I could turn up almost nothing on Google and absolutely nothing weapon related.

An anomaly perhaps, but the resource to get the ray skin certainly seems to be in place. Interestingly the Wikipedia article notes that the Hausa know it as the 'water scorpion'. I wonder if any tribes in the area associated animistic or totemic values to the ray?

Great stuff Iain! Now theres a question for us . Knowing the totemism characteristically applied toward various creatures symbolically, could these be somehow represented ?
We do know the catfish occurs in stylized symbolism in Sudanese and I think Egyptian areas.
That central dagger seems West African, yes? I suppose Chad could be possible as eastern reach.

15th November 2011, 06:01 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Wrong allocation ? On November 6, 2011, Meisner-Neumann auction took place in Prague. There were also a few eastern weapons (not 100 % my field), and I am not definitely sure, if they attributed correct countries" - Small knife in silver sheath with double hook for small animals and tinderbox was described as from Mongolia (I thought it should be Tibet). - Small dagger with ray skin was attributed to Chad (ray skin in Chad). - Also I have newer seen Keris with such small wiwes - described as from Borneo (is it real piece or souvenier ?). Thanks for standpoints, regards, Martin Attached Images

15th November 2011, 06:52 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Definitely need Lews's input here! Rayskin in Chad ?????

15th November 2011, 07:09 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	There is a species of freshwater ray in the Benue river... Style of the knife is close enough to fit this area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_stingray I'm having trouble finding if any freshwater rays exist in Lake Chad. But there are certainly rivers with them around in the right area for this knife.

15th November 2011, 07:17 PM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Decorations on the first item and the shape of the knife definetely point at Tibet

15th November 2011, 09:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thanks so much Iain, had no idea these were in these regions. Naturally with rayskin I think of oriental weapon grips and in some cases those on Eastern European sabres' grips. Of course they were used on British officers grips, but do we know of any other Saharan weapons with this material? I think of crocodile first or the monitor, but havent seen rayskin. All best, Jim

15th November 2011, 09:34 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Jim, I don't blame you for thinking of eastern swords. I can't recall a Sahel weapon I've seen before with rayskin. However from the wikipedia article it appears the Niger stingray is fished heavily and eaten. So I imagine an ample supply of skin was/is available. The two types of stingray found in fresh water in Africa are both in Western Africa, nothing in Lake Chad. Unfortunately besides the wikipedia articles I could turn up almost nothing on Google and absolutely nothing weapon related. An anomaly perhaps, but the resource to get the ray skin certainly seems to be in place. Interestingly the Wikipedia article notes that the Hausa know it as the 'water scorpion'. I wonder if any tribes in the area associated animistic or totemic values to the ray?

15th November 2011, 09:40 PM	#7
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Nice Keris there! Good for cutting crunchy bread and stick it into some cheesefondue! Am not a keris-collector but would like to own that one; curious what others' opinions are . . .!