Mysterious sword from Elgood's book

ariel · 18th May 2006, 03:29 AM

"Hindu arms and ritual", p.243:
"Chirkas:sword, specifically a Circassian sword. Used by the Uzbeks. Babur Nama, p.65"
The Circassian sword used by the Uzbeks and other Central Asians is what Lebedynsky calls a "pseudo-shashka". It is believed, indeed, to derive from the Russian Cossack Shashkas that came to the area in the mid-1800s, as a result of the Russian invasion of Khiva, Bukhara etc. and the Russians, indeed, took it from North Caucasians.
However, reference to Babur Nama clearly antedates it.
Uzbeks, Turkic people, or their differently named predecessors invaded Caucasus in 13th century with Subedai and Jebe, a reconnaissance force of Chingiz Khan. Could they bring their Shashka-like weapons to Circassia? If so, why do they name their weapon Chircas?
Is it possible that Shashka made a "full circle": from Central Asia to the Caucasus and back?

ham · 18th May 2006, 05:33 AM

Ariel,

Before you get any further down that flowery path- Elgood's not talking about a shashka. Read the Baburname, it's a completely different type of sword.

Ham

ariel · 18th May 2006, 07:23 AM

My point is that there was a Circassian sword used by Uzbeks at the time of Babur Nama. No matter what it looked like, this implies connection between the two cultures.

Rivkin · 18th May 2006, 08:06 AM

Fugh, I can offer some educated guesses:

1. Cherkes means "eagle" in some version of osethian language. It is remotely possible that "cherkes" is taken directly from alanic.

I have not reade baburname, so I'll just fire it all away:

2. While circassian presence in India was probably non-existant since mamluk operations in India were mostly concluded before 1290, i.e. before massive use of circassians, circassian presence was extremely powerful in XVIth-XVIIth century Iran. There was a fight between Qizilbash - warriors whose both parents were turkoman and those whose mother was georgian or circassian. Tahmasp patronized to "caucasians", then Ismail patronized to Qizilbash, than Abbas I was the leader of georgian faction, with people like Allaverdi Khan installed. This is one of the reasons it is hard for georgians to make a patriotic story about those times - all those who rampaged the country and send the entire eastern kartli population into fedarin area of iran where at least 50% georgian, including the shah.

Circassian slave women were a little bit harder to get, but still available (famous story about first persian in england actually being a circassian from abbas' court).

3. When Timur rampaged through Circassia, he could have used his usual practise of sending "worthy" artisans to Samarkand, while killing the rest. It is quite possible that circassian sword makers were among the relocated.

ariel · 18th May 2006, 04:02 PM

Kirill, I like the hypothesis #3 very much.
Of course, every conqueror moved the best artisans to his own land, and that always was a major source of cultural exchange between weapon traditions. And the times fit: about 150 years between Timur and his grandson Babur.
Good thinking!

ham · 18th May 2006, 05:52 PM

History is not always that extreme, gentlemen.

Trade is a component that cannot be left out of the discussion.

Astvatsaturyan states that the skill of Circassian armourers was already well-known in Russia and that several were invited to the capital to set up shop by the Tsar in the early 17th century (which apparently, they did.) They were not dragged there. Incidentally, when Timur brought artesans back to Central Asia, they were PAID and well at that, for their work. Few artists produce great work without compensation, or on threat of death. Economically, it's a weak program and your average conqueror knew this.
The Qajar shahs were known for driving a hard bargain with their armourers and jewelers-- but they always paid.

In addition, a weapon, or any object, will be known by the name of a people either because it was actually made by them or because the form was copied from them-- it was a variety of branding.

Circassian sword= BSA (British Small Arms-- famous for motorcycles but originally an arms mfg. plant)

or

Circassian sword=Dutch oven

Ham

18th May 2006, 03:29 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Mysterious sword from Elgood's book "Hindu arms and ritual", p.243: "Chirkas:sword, specifically a Circassian sword. Used by the Uzbeks. Babur Nama, p.65" The Circassian sword used by the Uzbeks and other Central Asians is what Lebedynsky calls a "pseudo-shashka". It is believed, indeed, to derive from the Russian Cossack Shashkas that came to the area in the mid-1800s, as a result of the Russian invasion of Khiva, Bukhara etc. and the Russians, indeed, took it from North Caucasians. However, reference to Babur Nama clearly antedates it. Uzbeks, Turkic people, or their differently named predecessors invaded Caucasus in 13th century with Subedai and Jebe, a reconnaissance force of Chingiz Khan. Could they bring their Shashka-like weapons to Circassia? If so, why do they name their weapon Chircas? Is it possible that Shashka made a "full circle": from Central Asia to the Caucasus and back?

18th May 2006, 05:33 AM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Ariel, Before you get any further down that flowery path- Elgood's not talking about a shashka. Read the Baburname, it's a completely different type of sword. Ham

18th May 2006, 07:23 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My point is that there was a Circassian sword used by Uzbeks at the time of Babur Nama. No matter what it looked like, this implies connection between the two cultures.

18th May 2006, 08:06 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Fugh, I can offer some educated guesses: 1. Cherkes means "eagle" in some version of osethian language. It is remotely possible that "cherkes" is taken directly from alanic. I have not reade baburname, so I'll just fire it all away: 2. While circassian presence in India was probably non-existant since mamluk operations in India were mostly concluded before 1290, i.e. before massive use of circassians, circassian presence was extremely powerful in XVIth-XVIIth century Iran. There was a fight between Qizilbash - warriors whose both parents were turkoman and those whose mother was georgian or circassian. Tahmasp patronized to "caucasians", then Ismail patronized to Qizilbash, than Abbas I was the leader of georgian faction, with people like Allaverdi Khan installed. This is one of the reasons it is hard for georgians to make a patriotic story about those times - all those who rampaged the country and send the entire eastern kartli population into fedarin area of iran where at least 50% georgian, including the shah. Circassian slave women were a little bit harder to get, but still available (famous story about first persian in england actually being a circassian from abbas' court). 3. When Timur rampaged through Circassia, he could have used his usual practise of sending "worthy" artisans to Samarkand, while killing the rest. It is quite possible that circassian sword makers were among the relocated.

18th May 2006, 04:02 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kirill, I like the hypothesis #3 very much. Of course, every conqueror moved the best artisans to his own land, and that always was a major source of cultural exchange between weapon traditions. And the times fit: about 150 years between Timur and his grandson Babur. Good thinking!

18th May 2006, 05:52 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	History is not always that extreme, gentlemen. Trade is a component that cannot be left out of the discussion. Astvatsaturyan states that the skill of Circassian armourers was already well-known in Russia and that several were invited to the capital to set up shop by the Tsar in the early 17th century (which apparently, they did.) They were not dragged there. Incidentally, when Timur brought artesans back to Central Asia, they were PAID and well at that, for their work. Few artists produce great work without compensation, or on threat of death. Economically, it's a weak program and your average conqueror knew this. The Qajar shahs were known for driving a hard bargain with their armourers and jewelers-- but they always paid. In addition, a weapon, or any object, will be known by the name of a people either because it was actually made by them or because the form was copied from them-- it was a variety of branding. Circassian sword= BSA (British Small Arms-- famous for motorcycles but originally an arms mfg. plant) or Circassian sword=Dutch oven Ham