How old are the katar types?

Jens Nordlunde · 25th July 2015, 02:59 PM

From 1650 to 1800 the Danish kings had their own private museum, containing many different things - katars as well.

From 1648 to 1845 Denmark had a trading post called Tranquebar on the south east coast of India, and many Indian items were shipped home to the royal Danish museum. Amongst the things were also the five katars shown on the picture.
The ones who collected the items did not write from where in India the different items came, nor did they write in which year they had been collected, or if they were new or used at the time, but we do know something else, we know when the katars entered the collection. They entered the colelction in the end of the 17th century.

Ian · 25th July 2015, 05:00 PM

Jens:

Thank you for posting these most interesting pieces with a clear provenance to pre-1700. They are all in great condition, with the two left-most examples looking as though they were just made. Excellent preservation over the years by museum staff.

The central one looks the "oldest" to me, and it appears that the left edge of the blade (as we look at it) is shorter than the right. Also, there appear to be some marks on the blade further down. Could this be a remount of an earlier knife which had a partially sharpened back edge? Is it possible this might be a European blade that was custom remounted? Just a passing thought.

Ian.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th July 2015, 05:23 PM

Ian,
In the book it say that it is a shortened European sword blade.
What I find interesting is, that even with dated blades you can not be quite sure, the dating was made when the katar was new, or sometime later, maybe 'helping' a bit on the age when dating it. But in this case we know for sure that the katars are, at least from the 17th century.
Jens

Miguel · 7th August 2015, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

From 1650 to 1800 the Danish kings had their own private museum, containing many different things - katars as well.

From 1648 to 1845 Denmark had a trading post called Tranquebar on the south east coast of India, and many Indian items were shipped home to the royal Danish museum. Amongst the things were also the five katars shown on the picture.
The ones who collected the items did not write from where in India the different items came, nor did they write in which year they had been collected, or if they were new or used at the time, but we do know something else, we know when the katars entered the collection. They entered the colelction in the end of the 17th century.

Hi Jens
Thank you for posting this, I found it very interesting. It does not look like Katars have changed much over the years. I have taken the liberty of showing some Katars that I have which go to emphasize this point which makes it difficult to age them.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2015, 06:02 PM

Miguel,
The first katar you show is very worn, and the second one in quite a good condition.
None of us know, which katar has beeen cleaned how many times, so the wear can be a hint, but a recent dealer with a very rusty katar could also be a hint. We can not be quite sure.
I am researching the first katar you show, but have nothing final yet.

As to the development of the katar I have taken it back to the 10th century of Orissa, but this does not mean that it could not be older - that is how far back I got it when I researched. (How Old is the Katar? Royal Armouries Journal, Leeds).
The katar then had a very heavy blade, only one cross bar and no side guards. A diety holds it in one of her hands, but if all katars looked like that at the time is not certain - they might have, or maybe not.

If this really is one of the first katar types, I have no doubt, that they would very soon after have developed a better grip, and side guards for a better protection.
Jens

Miguel · 8th August 2015, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,
The first katar you show is very worn, and the second one in quite a good condition.
None of us know, which katar has beeen cleaned how many times, so the wear can be a hint, but a recent dealer with a very rusty katar could also be a hint. We can not be quite sure.
I am researching the first katar you show, but have nothing final yet.

As to the development of the katar I have taken it back to the 10th century of Orissa, but this does not mean that it could not be older - that is how far back I got it when I researched. (How Old is the Katar? Royal Armouries Journal, Leeds).
The katar then had a very heavy blade, only one cross bar and no side guards. A diety holds it in one of her hands, but if all katars looked like that at the time is not certain - they might have, or maybe not.

If this really is one of the first katar types, I have no doubt, that they would very soon after have developed a better grip, and side guards for a better protection.
Jens

Hi Jens,
You have probably got this book but Mahgrib to Moghul shows a picture of a two pronged katar with an exact same hilt with four riveted crossbars as mine also Stone also shows an illustration of one with a two pronged blade and what appears to be the same hilt. These are the only two images I have seen of a hilt with four riveted cross bars but in each case neither age or region of origin were stated. Thanks a lot for your comments and interest and I look forward to learning what you may discover about my first item.
Best regards
Miguel

Jens Nordlunde · 8th August 2015, 10:13 PM

Miguel,
Yes I have the book, but I am amased how Terry and many other authors doesn't even try to give a date or a place - well some try to give a date, but very few try to give a place of origin.
I know why they try to avoid it, as it is very hard, as wepons were moved a lot around those days, and weapon smiths as well (due to winners and loosers of battles) - but when it comes to these katars, there are still some pointers. The protrusion, although it differes a lot, and the blades - which also differ - but still.

I have a number of these katars, and when they have two or three cross bars the bars are quite sturdy, but from four and upwards they are quite thin.

There is another group, which I think may belong to these katars, but they are without protrusions.

However I am still researching, on and off, as I have other researches going.

Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2015, 10:26 AM

Miguel,
Maybe this thread will interest you http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...trusion+katars

25th July 2015, 02:59 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	How old are the katar types? From 1650 to 1800 the Danish kings had their own private museum, containing many different things - katars as well. From 1648 to 1845 Denmark had a trading post called Tranquebar on the south east coast of India, and many Indian items were shipped home to the royal Danish museum. Amongst the things were also the five katars shown on the picture. The ones who collected the items did not write from where in India the different items came, nor did they write in which year they had been collected, or if they were new or used at the time, but we do know something else, we know when the katars entered the collection. They entered the colelction in the end of the 17th century. Attached Images

25th July 2015, 05:00 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Jens: Thank you for posting these most interesting pieces with a clear provenance to pre-1700. They are all in great condition, with the two left-most examples looking as though they were just made. Excellent preservation over the years by museum staff. The central one looks the "oldest" to me, and it appears that the left edge of the blade (as we look at it) is shorter than the right. Also, there appear to be some marks on the blade further down. Could this be a remount of an earlier knife which had a partially sharpened back edge? Is it possible this might be a European blade that was custom remounted? Just a passing thought. Ian.

25th July 2015, 05:23 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ian, In the book it say that it is a shortened European sword blade. What I find interesting is, that even with dated blades you can not be quite sure, the dating was made when the katar was new, or sometime later, maybe 'helping' a bit on the age when dating it. But in this case we know for sure that the katars are, at least from the 17th century. Jens

7th August 2015, 06:02 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, The first katar you show is very worn, and the second one in quite a good condition. None of us know, which katar has beeen cleaned how many times, so the wear can be a hint, but a recent dealer with a very rusty katar could also be a hint. We can not be quite sure. I am researching the first katar you show, but have nothing final yet. As to the development of the katar I have taken it back to the 10th century of Orissa, but this does not mean that it could not be older - that is how far back I got it when I researched. (How Old is the Katar? Royal Armouries Journal, Leeds). The katar then had a very heavy blade, only one cross bar and no side guards. A diety holds it in one of her hands, but if all katars looked like that at the time is not certain - they might have, or maybe not. If this really is one of the first katar types, I have no doubt, that they would very soon after have developed a better grip, and side guards for a better protection. Jens

8th August 2015, 10:13 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, Yes I have the book, but I am amased how Terry and many other authors doesn't even try to give a date or a place - well some try to give a date, but very few try to give a place of origin. I know why they try to avoid it, as it is very hard, as wepons were moved a lot around those days, and weapon smiths as well (due to winners and loosers of battles) - but when it comes to these katars, there are still some pointers. The protrusion, although it differes a lot, and the blades - which also differ - but still. I have a number of these katars, and when they have two or three cross bars the bars are quite sturdy, but from four and upwards they are quite thin. There is another group, which I think may belong to these katars, but they are without protrusions. However I am still researching, on and off, as I have other researches going. Jens

9th August 2015, 10:26 AM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, Maybe this thread will interest you http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...trusion+katars