Silver mounted badek for coments

[fernando]

Badek ... badik ... badiik. I see all three versions out there; which one would be correct ?
The blade is 10" (25 cms.) long.
The seller dated it 18-19th century ... would 18th make some sense ?
Some signs of restoring can be seen on the wooden parts.
I wonder whether this is a current piece or a bit of a "presumptious" example, with its silver mountings ... i mean in its due period.
Would anyone care to coment on it ?
I would be most gratefull.
Fernando

[CharlesS]

Lovely example with a nice pamor blade, and nice silver bolster,

I think I am most impressed by the silver scabbard fittings that appear to be legitimate old ones, which are getting harder and harder to find.

Nice catch!!

[fernando]

Thank you Charles.
Silver fittings undoubtfully originals, as checked at sight.
Any opinnion on its age, judging by its pattern ?

[VANDOO]

A BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLE ,TOP QUALITY WORKMANSHIP WITH SOME AGE TO IT.
I COULD BE OFF ON THIS OBSERVATION BUT MOST OF THE BADEK I HAVE SEEN ARE MUCH MORE PLAIN AND DON'T HAVE THE TOP QUALITY SILVER WORK. I HAVE SEEN THIS QUALITY OF WORK MORE OFTEN ON KLEWANGS AND LARGER WEAPONS.

[Newsteel]

Very nice and rarely we could find badik with finely repoussed silver works with floral motifs. As Vandoo said, it's often found on klewang and pedang. I've seen it on Sumatran sewar as well. Normally we can expect this this kind of elaborate silver works pieces to be dated 19th century. The blade could be much older, maybe late 18th century where new silver fittings were added on later.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

Badek ... badik ... badiik. I see all three versions out there; which one would be correct ?
...
Would anyone care to coment on it ?
I would be most gratefull.
Fernando

as we are transliterating a word from a non western language into a western phonetic alphabet, all of them are valid, as would other spellings with the same sound...even amongst native english speakers from differing countries, ie. USA, UK, Australia & NZ, the pronunciation of vowels, AEIOU (& sometimes Y) has drifted. i personally prefer 'badek' for my similar but lesser one ('badik' is used by buttin on the forum's sister Reference Site ) the 'badek' i was sold by a malaysian dealer was spelled 'badek' in his ads for it. (not this one tho)

[fernando]

Thank you for your kind words, Barry and Newsteel

I thaught i would post today the decoration on the scabbard opposite side. Yesterday i didn't notice that the two sides had a different detail ... i had bought this piece a couple hours before i took the first pictures .

Thank you Kronckew, for the hint on the spelling. Once you mention the different vowels pronunciation amongst the various english speaking natives, i can not ignore that latinic languages have a completely distinct sound for them. Being phonetics the main reason for the different transliterations, i guess that Badik will be the closest sound/spell for me to adopt
Fernando
PS
Isn't Buttin French ( latinic) speaking ?

[CharlesS]

I tend to be very conservative about dating...at least that's what I am told.

I would say the blade is 19th century. The silver work is a tougher call because similar to identical patterns are used today in low grade silver work for both new pieces and restorations.

The central panel of silver work is more common(today) than the work at the scabbard mouth in my opinion, so I think in combination this is very old work, certainly no later then very early 20th Century.....just my opinion.

[Gonzalo G]

Excuse me, does any of you have historical references about this kind of work in silver? I mean, it can only be made chiselled from "above" with the scabbard already formed and soldered, or it can be made with a combination of repousee and chiselling, from both sides of the open piece, and the scabbard finally been closed and soldered, which is a very difficult thing to do as the fitting among the borders would be distorted by the previous work. I´ve read many times the use of the word "repousee" applied to both kind of techniques. Chiselling can also be made creating different levels on the surface (volumes), and not only as a plain one level draw. Thank you.

[asomotif]

Dear Gonzalo,

Nice badek. Good addition to any collection.
I have no historical info on this workmanship.
But I am told that this work needs working from both sides of the metal sheet.
If this is done the old way a lot of work and time goed into it.
The metal must be heated and cooled down between the forging to prevent it from cracking.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by kronckew

as we are transliterating a word from a non western language into a western phonetic alphabet, all of them are valid, as would other spellings with the same sound...even amongst native english speakers from differing countries, ie. USA, UK, Australia & NZ, the pronunciation of vowels, AEIOU (& sometimes Y) has drifted. i personally prefer 'badek' for my similar but lesser one ('badik' is used by buttin on the forum's sister Reference Site ) the 'badek' i was sold by a malaysian dealer was spelled 'badek' in his ads for it. (not this one tho)

A very good point on the naming, how we see it written is often westernized. The other thing to remember is that there are a number of different peoples living close to each other each with thier own dialects in this part of the world. The name for the same blade would be differerent in Gayo than Alas, still different in Sumatran. Batak etc. this particular one is listed as Badek, Bade, Badee, Badi, Badi Badi, Badik, Badik Badik and Badit in "Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipeligo.

[A. G. Maisey]

In Jawa this type of dagger is named "badhik"; badik is acceptable.

The type of silver work on the one under discussion appears to be exactly the same type of work that is currently used to make pendok and other silver items in Jogja and surrounds. This is done by first fabricating the form, then filling it with wax and applying the motif by hammering with different types of punches.When the work is finished the wax is removed by boiling the pendok. During the work process the pendok is held firm in a bed of hard wax.

I understand that the Dutch introduced this silver working technique in the 19th century.

The photos with this post are of two badhik in my possession. According to Javanese people with whom I have spoken and who have some knowledge in this field, these two badhik are of Javanese origin.

[Mark]

Interesting information on the manufacturing technique. It is almost exactly the same as is used in Burma, No. Thailand and Laos to make repouseed silver. Instead of wax a heavy resin is used. The work is don in stages, between which the resin is melted and re-set to make room for the next level of detail. I wonder if that technique has a Dutch origin as well, though it would be surprising that it would reach that far north, essentially leap-frogging a large area in between.

[Mark]

Coincidentally, a dah from this thread also has this same floral design. The dha was collected in Cambodia, but I believe that it, too, is from Laos or Northern Thailand.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Mark

Coincidentally, a dah from this thread also has this same floral design. The dha was collected in Cambodia, but I believe that it, too, is from Laos or Northern Thailand.

Mark
My thought , and its just a guess, is that these floral, faunal and geometric patterns may come from the strong early Islamic influence in the indonesian area. Would early Islamic trade in the area account for migrations of these patterns to Cambodia ?

[Tim Simmons]

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

You are not being difficult. You bring out a great point I was not talking about the technique as much as these patterns. And I never meant to imply Islamic was the only influence on these patterns. Yes decorations of plant life have been used throughout the world. Depictions of birds are often attibuted to Hindu influences. As noted in "Hands of Time" by Barbara Leigh noted that Wakelin-king suggests that Indonesian designs, and indeed most designs from the western pacific region frequently conform to some or all of the following characteristics: a predispositions to arrainge motifs within compartments, the use of two dimensional rectilinear and curvilinear motifs appearing in bands or withinclearly demarcated zones, a tendency towards endless repetition, a tendency to use shallow relief forms on a flat surface in incised designs rather than sculptural or plastic forms, and a dominance of major tonal contrasts or absence of polychrome design ingredients so that the design can clearly be "read" in black and white. The floral and faunal motifs are often attributed to costal muslim influences, Some of the geometric motifs may be also though others can be traced back to the Dongson Period and these are certainly also an influence. Sumatran geometric influences can be traced back further , to approximately 2000 BC so they are also pre islamic. So I would love to hear other ideas on the origination of these motifs. Even if those ideas prove I am very wrong

[Gonzalo G]

Fernando, first of all, I didn´t congratulate you for this beautiful piece before, but I do it now. It is a very nice piece of work.

Thank you for your comments about the silver work. It happens that I studied some silversmithing and have some intimate understanding of this craft. The silversmiths in some places of Latin América uses to make hilts and scabbards of chiseled silver in the same ways than in this badik is done. We make the scabbards, fill them with a special mixture of waxes and asphaltic resin, fixi the the scabbards in a box filled with the same mixture and then chisel them from above. I mean, the work is not done from inside, or it would be called "repousee". We make the volumes and the "levels" from upside. I checked with my friends, more experienced silversmiths, and they confirmed me this bandik and scabbard was only chiseled, meaning worked form above. But as Battara says, it could be better called "chasing", as the meaning of "chiselling" has another connotations in english. The point is that the work is done from above and not from the inside. I know what do you mean by a reposee type of work, but I think this is not the case. Please see this page, where you can find illustrations of hilts and scabards chased in this way, entirely form above with the scabbard already formed and soldered:

http://www.malamudorfebre.com/english/cuchillos-en.htm

And as you say, between steps the work is reheated and then suddenly dipped in cold water with some nitric or sulphuric acid, in order to soften the metal, the acid being useful to clean it´s surface.

Thank you for your attention

Gonzalo

[fernando]

Does it help (or complicates) to show this example ?
... Both for the silver decoration, that looks partly a similar work to my ignorant eyes, as also for the blade, that somehow reminds me the one show by Alan in post #17 ... naturally influenced by the date marking attitude.
Most probably you already knew this specimen, shown here.
http://old.blades.free.fr/daggers/badik/bad03/bad03.htm
Fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

I have read that it was already practised in the bronze age, and that has reached a notable perfection during Renaissance, so as later the Dutch works in the XVII century.

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east.
First picture gold from Thrace. The second the Scythians. The thrid Peru. We could be loosing sight of the actual weapon which is quite pretty.

[Andrew]

[A. G. Maisey]

Although the English language can be an incredibly difficult language to use correctly, one of the great advantages of this language is that it is extremely flexible, and there are many forms and levels of expression within the language that can be acceptable . Most professions and trades have their own use for English words, and these trade usages very often are incorrect when measured by the meanings accepted in Standard English, which is the form of the English Language regarded as the norm for an educated person.

I think we can accept that within the silversmithing craft, Tim's use of repousse, and repoussage is inarguably accurate.

However, that accuracy of usage does not carry over into Standard English.

Yes, it is true that a living language develops and changes structure and meaning over time. Equally it is true that the various colloquial forms of the English Language vary from the Standard form of the language. However, since we are not all members of the silversmithing craft, and since there are defined and accurate terms available to describe this work under discussion, perhaps it might be advisable to use these Standard English terms in order to avoid confusion.

(Standard English:- "Standard English is that set of grammatical and lexical forms which is typically used in speech and writing by educated native speakers. It includes the use of colloquial and slang vocabulary, as well as swear words and taboo expressions."---Trudgill)

Within Standard English, the meanings of repousse (repoussage) and chasing are still current, and as I have given them.It not archaic usage, nor is it even slightly dated usage. It is correct usage for any educated person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

[Tim Simmons]

All I can add is that my colleagues and I employ "chasers" chaps that cut details into work. These craftspeople can create incredible effects and textures to the metal surface. Like making textures of clothing, hair and cutting some of the most sensitive of detail not just in a by numbers fashion. As I said earlier I an not an expert.

[Mark]

Completely OT - what is your new avatar, Tim? It looks like a Paleolithic mother goddess figurine.

[Gonzalo G]

Tim, beyond the subject of what is "more correct" or not in the case of this term, which is a subject of controversy, I thank you for making me understanding why the term is used idistinctly in both cases. I find that your explanation is a good and valid answer to my original question. As I said, you gave me an enlightment about another element of your languaje which I did not understand and always gave me a problem when I read it, as in the comments about Fernando´s badek silversmithing work. Very kind of you making this effort to explain.
My best regards

Gonzalo