The question of Egypt

[motan]

Hello,
This is just an attempt to draw information from the experts on this forum.
I collect daggers from Israel and the surrounding countries and I have noticed that Egyptian daggers are practically absent from any collection.
All that appears as Egyptian are fantasy tourist items or pharaonic age ancient daggers.
The majority of Egyptians are peaceful farmers and merchants and have been ruled by foreign military elite for centuries, who probably brought their own Ottoman types along. Still, every country in the Middle East has at least 2-3 types of local daggers. How come Egypt is such an exception?
So, does anyone know a genuine type of Egyptian dagger?

[Sajen]

So far I know are the Hadendoa daggers are found also in parts of Egypt.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Hi Eytan,

I just remember, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14776

Best,
Detlef

[motan]

Thanks Detlef,
But, the dagger in thread is clearly an Ottoman style dagger, and made as a decorative piece. I could have been made in Egypt, but this is not an authentic Egyptian style. I am looking for something local people carried.

[TVV]

Good question, which you may have answered in your opening post. It really was not until Mohammad Ali attempted to arm the local peasants and drill them in European manner that the local population even bore any arms. The peasants, unlike peasants in other parts of North Africa and the Middle East were not really expected to provide any kind of military service even as poorly equipped levies, with the military usually supplied by foreign slave mercenaries, such as the Circassian and Kipchaq Mamelukes prior to the Ottoman conquest. This situation goes back all the way to the Fatimid Caliphate.

The military elite certainly had its own decorative style and forms for weapons, as Egypt had sufficient arms producing capabilities until the 16th century, and it may be interesting to see how much of what we consider Ottoman in terms of sword hilt and blade style (and armor too) may have been borrowed from the Mamelukes. However, following the Ottoman conquest it appears that a lot of the bladesmiths along with other skilled artisans may have been resettled in other parts of the Empire, as was the custom in the Middle East following conquests, which must have brought an end to the local arms producing traditions. This explains why we stop seeing blades signed by so and so "Al-Misri" into the 17th century and thereafter, with the local military elite relying on imports or weapons brought along with the mercenaries themselves, such as in the case of Mohammad Ali's Balkan (predominantly Albanian) contingent which turned out to be strong enough to take advantage of the power vacuum left in the early 19th century following Napoleon's campaign.

When you think about it, this is not just limited to daggers, but is also the case when it comes to swords and firearms - following the Ottoman conquest, there ceases to be a style that we can recognize as clearly Egyptian.

[Battara]

Thought Motan, that the Ottomans ruled in fact and later in name from the 16th to the 20th centuries. Thus an Ottoman dagger might have been considered Egyptian.

What I hear you asking for is an example of and information on the indigenous versions of the Egyptian dagger.

[ariel]

Weapons studded with corals are usually attributable to Turkey proper and to Algeria. The latter had the richest coral deposits .
Moran has asked a good question: come to think of it, I also am unfamiliar with any Egyptian weapons. Mamluks till 16 century, Ottoman thereafter.
Something is indeed very strange: Morocco, Tunis, their Kabyle tribes, Algeria, even Tuaregs, - all had their national bladed weapons. But not the Egyptians.
Teodor might be correct: Egypt was ruled by foreigners for centuries, and they brought their weapons.
What about Libya?

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by motan

How come Egypt is such an exception?

Egypt was constantly occupied by different conquerers since around 500 BC.

The career as a province started with the persian Cambyses II. in 525 BC and ended in the 19th ct. after the liberation from Ottoman rule.

As a foreign ruler one the first things you have to do, is to stop any kind of local military arms production!

This is the reason, why wo cannot found Egyptian patterns. It is the same thing as with Greece after it became a Roman and later an Ottoman province. Or with the Balkan under Ottoman rule.

The egyptian weapons before 525 were mainly made from bronze and simply were reused as tools or whatever, since bronze is very easy to shape.

It also often happens, that conquerers destroy or confisticate all weapons to avoid revolt (Germany after WW2).


Roland

[ariel]

Roland,
Turks actually encouraged production of weapons in their occupied areas. The entire Balkans during the Ottoman rule were a giant weapon forge. Not only did they manufacture “ Turkish looking” weapons but also develop their own styles: witness Epirus swords, characteristic Cretan yataghans, Grecian bichaqs, Bulgarian karakulaks, “naval” yataghans etc, etc.
The entire Elgood’s book is dedicated to them.

Egypt under Mohammed Ali was in reality a quasi-independent state that actually fought with the Ottoman Empire. They must have had a well-developed arms and armor production enterprise.

The puzzling fact is the virtual absence of Egyptian styles, not of actual Egyptian examples. That is what we are talking about.

[motan]

Thank you all for your contributions. I am a bit wiser now but it is still a strange void. Egypt has produced some great weapons from the Old Kingdom and up to the great swords of Islamic pre-Ottoman times, but somehow did not follow up this tradition into early modernity.
Possibly, weapons were produced in Egypt in Ottoman style, but are not identified as a separate entity.
Some areas under Ottoman rule became hubs of weapon production, like the Balkan and Syria which made a variety of weapons to the taste of the different ethnicities of the Ottoman society, while others imported these weapons from these centers. It also makes sense that areas with clan structure and local chieftains or lower nobility developed more local types of weapons, while areas that were closely controlled by an empire did not. In the picture, Muhammad Ali of Egypt who was Albanian, pictured with a sword that seems like a Kilij hilt-Shamshir blade - type Ottomans sword often made in Damascus and popular in all southern areas of the empire.

[Kubur]

Hi Motan,

I was waiting a bit to see what the others had in mind.
They answered partially to your question.
In fact we all have Egyptian daggers, they are called Ottoman, Turkish, Arab, Bedouin daggers...
As it was mentionned by some members for the Mamluks, it's not always the Egyptians who borrowed these weapons but they also contributed to the field and later theses weapons were used by the Arabs, Ottomans... but they were not Ottoman weapons originally...
Here in these late 18th c. engravings you can see some Egyptian daggers...

Best,
Kubur

[motan]

Hello Kubur,
Thanks. This is a significant contribution. I suspected something in this direction, as you can read in my last post, but there was no evidence. It is there now. But still, it is strange that this great tradition has not continued into 19th-20th c., or did it??

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by motan

This is just an attempt to draw information from the experts on this forum.
I collect daggers from Israel and the surrounding countries and I have noticed that Egyptian daggers are practically absent from any collection.
All that appears as Egyptian are fantasy tourist items or pharaonic age ancient daggers.
How come Egypt is such an exception?So, does anyone know a genuine type of Egyptian dagger?

What is about this ones? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=egypt+coral