Mail Shirt - East Europe / Prob. 2nd half XV cent.

[RogerFox]

Here we are, talking about what i'm more comfortable

Little by little i will post some pieces from my personal collection, hoping they can be interesting to anyone who love mail armors and such topics.

This one is the first friend that basically started my own collection, some years ago.

As mail maker and lover, i always try to find out references that can helps to better understand and map as many mail pieces scattered all over the world, inside museum, personal collection, etc.

Dating and geographically point out precisely a mail piece is not a simple task. In some rare case we have maker marks that can help us better define the provenace, but most of the time we must look for visual and objective relationships with the various known pieces. Even the historical dating is not at all so obvious and easy. Whether it is European or Eastern mails.

The general design of the piece, the tailoring, the specific shape of the rings, the riveting method, the construction pattern, the presence or absence of posthumous alterations, and so on.

As if all this wasn't enough, we know for a fact that many mails underwent modifications, cuts and reassemblies during the 19th century, when many collections and museums began to be set up and opened to the public, using many of these pieces as aesthetic fillers for plates armors.

I do personally clean and restore my own pieces, with no chemicals and mechanical tools, just patience and handwork... so i can perfectly decide the level of intervention. Said that i will proceed presenting my first contribution to this forum.

Please feel free to comment, add info and ask anything you like... we are here to share and gain knowledge

[Raf]

In an earlier post (chain mail) I illustrated some fragments of mercury gilded brass mail recovered from the river Thames. Do you have any observations on this ?

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by Raf

In an earlier post (chain mail) I illustrated some fragments of mercury gilded brass mail recovered from the river Thames. Do you have any observations on this ?

Ok i saw the post, well... i'm not quite sure why you refear to those rings as "mercury gilged"?... I'm really far to be an expert but they does just look brass rings to me

From what i can see they looks round riveted and yes, very thin wire size and pretty big diameter... so they can easily part of the edge of some mail garments.

[Raf]

Originally Posted by RogerFox

Ok i saw the post, well... i'm not quite sure why you refear to those rings as "mercury gilged"?... I'm really far to be an expert but they does just look brass rings to me

From what i can see they looks round riveted and yes, very thin wire size and pretty big diameter... so they can easily part of the edge of some mail garments.

Yes the wire is very thin but 7mm diameter isn't exactly large. They are wedge rivited and it seems incredible that this was done with such fine wire . And yes they are gilded. Perhaps one should not be surprised since brass medieval / Tudor dress pins are often gilded. The use of decorative borders implies to me that mail had an aesthetic as well as functional value and this reflected its high cost.

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by Raf

Yes the wire is very thin but 7mm diameter isn't exactly large. They are wedge rivited and it seems incredible that this was done with such fine wire . And yes they are gilded. Perhaps one should not be surprised since brass medieval / Tudor dress pins are often gilded. The use of decorative borders implies to me that mail had an aesthetic as well as functional value and this reflected its high cost.

Ok 7mm is the average diameter, but for such thin wire size if often used just for edge parts (not collar). From the picture you posted they looks round riveted. I can clearly see the head of the rivets and they do not looks wedge at all (maybe a clear front/back picture can show it better). The gilded thing is quite interesting... i'd like to see it better for understanding how it looks.

[Jim McDougall]

Roger I am really glad you posted this! While I cannot claim any other than cursory familiarity with mail, it is a subject in an area notably seldom traveled here and it will be great to learn more from someone with your specialized expertise.

Obviously mail was ubiquitous in Europe and pretty much everywhere for the centuries, so there must be many inherent peculiarities which might help identify surviving examples. From my perspective as a historian, naturally mail has come up often in the study of nearly every area I have researched, and in so many ways it is hard to focus on where to begin.

For example, mail originally from European regions traveled into virtually every colonial destination, where it often became used by the native populations.
It has always been well known, and often romantically exploited by wistful writers in adventure themes that the 'crusaders' were in effect still very much still alive and well in North Africa with native warriors still carrying broadswords and wearing mail.
This was so consistent that they began making their own, which was the topic in the work by Arkell, (I believe the title was "The Making of Mail armor in the Sudan") who observed them actually producing it.

Regarding markings on mail, it seems I have read of cases where crosses or such perhaps talismanic devices were sometimes even placed on the flattened part of rings, much as with such marking of sword blades.

In one reference noting curious markings, often letters paired etc. were found in various locations on harness (plate armor and components), apparently keyed to align pieces for assembly (rather like numbered parts).

Was this ever done with mail as far as assembly?

With the Spaniards in the New World, from the time of the Conquistadors, mail was the most commonly known form of armor. It was reasonably available to the average person, often family or other heirloom type sets, which most of the members of these 'expeditions' were. These were not 'military' missions, and equipment not 'issued' but personally supplied.
From what I have understood, keeping mail serviceable in remote areas subject to often dramatic climate effects was a challenge at best. The deterioration of the mail as well as its compromise proved a poor defense against Indian arrows which not only broke the corroded rings, but carried the debris into the wound causing inevitable sepsis etc.
This led to the well known 'cuera', leather armor so well known in New Spain.

How was mail kept serviceable...that is kept from rusting or corroding?


These are the kinds of things that always piqued my interest,and it would be great to know your thoughts and observations.

* just noticing Raf's excellent question.......Roger you may have opened Pandoras box here, but frankly we could use a resident authority on mail.

[RogerFox]

Jim, i'm really far from being an expert. I'm moving my steps in the never ending journey of learning...

About your questions, well... yes, we have many example of stamped rings with religious meaning, names, etc. but it was mostly done in the islamic areas of the world.

I do personally never seen any "contruction marks" in specific sections of mail pieces, mostly because mail armors were not designed to be "taken apart" and put back together. When you needed to redo it or modify it, you did it by "cutting and sewing" the new piece. At least you can always add some marking rings just clipping them on the others and take them off when the work is done.

The rusting problem is another interesting matter. We know by experience that the most you use your mail armor, the most it kept clean by itself, just thanks to the movements the rings makes.

The problem comes out when you don't use it so often

But of course, i can image that wearing a piece of metal in the middle of the jungle and keep it "safe" is an hard challenge for everyone. I don't know anything specific on this topic, but i do know what indians used to do for keeping their Zirah Baktar protected by rust (the typical indian mail armors)... they covered them with mud, and that why we often see armor from those regions coming out with a relative brown color and stain overall.

Maybe they used to do it also in the middle of the New World?

[awdaniec666]

Hi Roger,

I wonder, why have mail shirts and its parts generally so little corrosion after all this time? I mean, even looked after medival swords often look like minefields. Is the steel harder or mixed with other elements than blades, do you know how that comes?
Anyway I´m looking forward to read more of your kindly detailed contributions.

Cheers,
Patrick

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Hi Roger,

I wonder, why have mail shirts and its parts generally so little corrosion after all this time? I mean, even looked after medival swords often look like minefields. Is the steel harder or mixed with other elements than blades, do you know how that comes?
Anyway I´m looking forward to read more of your kindly detailed contributions.

Cheers,
Patrick

Well, even mails suffer from corrosion in some cases. I have personally handled some piece with parts so corroded that they crumbled simply by moving the link.
But it is true that in general we have many examples of mails in fair condition.

However, we must make a clarification... medieval swords means swords before the 16th century, and the same goes for mails.

The most we go back in time, the less pieces we have and, usually, the worst are the conditions.

I think that in general the main reason that determines the state of conservation of an artefact is precisely the way in which it has been preserved over time... let me explain.
It is clear that a metal object, which spends centuries buried in the earth, or closed in a humid environment in contact with wet walls, etc. or buried in a grave to rot with its owner... it certainly has a high probability of ending up corroded by rust and oxide.
On the contrary, the more protected he remains from these elements, the better his chances of remaining "healthy" are.

Many of the swords and armor we see in museums, in excellent condition, are all post 15th century. Therefore they are most likely stored in better "protected" environments, perhaps indoors in trunks or wardrobes, in sword scabbard, or even simply protected with burnishing systems or superficial protective applications.
For example, mails (excluding those buried or found in rivers and mud fields), I imagine easily stored in closed containers, like normal clothes (but much more resistant).
In fact, all those with serious rust and corrosion encrustations clearly have been in contact with humid agents for a long time, and therefore kept uncovered, unprotected and so on.

I believe that many examples prior to the 15th century, if not reused in subsequent centuries or dismembered for garments suitable for Renaissance military fashions, were practically "abandoned" to themselves... even simply kept in unsuitable places and not cleaned/handled for centuries.

[Jim McDougall]

While I think Roger will answer Patricks question better, I just read a little on the subject of corrosion etc. with mail.

One of the key factors may have been the quality of the material, iron or steel, and the degree of proper processing. Poorly forged or poor quality material would seem more likely to encounter corrosion and compromise.

Good question though, how does mail remain in such good condition.
One thing about swords which are from old collections that have been displayed seem to have corroded more on the surface exposed due to dust accumulation absorbing moisture, while the reverse not getting as much dust was less exposed to dust and moisture. That was one suggestion I once heard.

Some mail may have been case hardened, thus less vulnerable.

I saw some detail on plating rings with brass or bronze as mentioned in post earlier, with the term electroplating....which seems kind of a modern process.

[RogerFox]

Yes Jim, the exposure theroy is in some way part of my argument... an object kept still for decades in the same position, will suffer different range of oxidation, dust and rust, depending on the sides exposed. Sure, it sound really appropriate.

There is also another thing to consider.. most of the well preserved items we can see today, weapons, armors and so on... kept their overall good conditions expecially thanks to the fact that they were "family collections". So they came out from quite "protected" situations... on the contrary, many corroded items were found in outdoor enviroments, such as graves, battleflieds and so on.
This is a situation we can see even on most recent items such WW2 helmets, bayonettes and others.

The hardening of late medieval weapons and armors is for sure a good point for the preservation, but i think that the main ruining process is caused by the real place where the items were left for centuries.

Note: once an expert told me that technically there is no "iron items" (speaking about medieval times) but they are all different level of steel... thats because the iron is in fact the mineral itself

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by RogerFox

Note: once an expert told me that technically there is no "iron items" (speaking about medieval times) but they are all different level of steel... thats because the iron is in fact the mineral itself

That's generally true today as well. It is very difficult, even today, to purify iron to the point that it shows its true face. That's due to carbon, even in remarkably low concentrations, being able to modify ferritic iron's mechanical properties.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

One thing about swords which are from old collections that have been displayed seem to have corroded more on the surface exposed due to dust accumulation absorbing moisture, while the reverse not getting as much dust was less exposed to dust and moisture. That was one suggestion I once heard...

Far from intending to go off topic, but this is indeed a subject rather tempting to raise.
I live less than a mile away from the salty Atlantic coast, and every time i pick up an old sword (or gun) from the walls for whatever reason, i am horrified with how fast topic rust invades the upper areas. Yes, only the upper areas. Whatever recipe of moister and dust creates in the air above and then falls down for assault on top of them.



.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Far from intending to go off topic, but this is indeed a subject rather tempting to raise.
I live less than a mile away from the salty Atlantic coast, and every time i pick up an old sword (or gun) from the walls for whatever reason, i am horrified with how fast topic rust invades the upper areas. Yes, only the upper areas. Whatever recipe of moister and dust creates in the air above and then falls down for assault on top of them.



.

Well noted Fernando. that was the term I was looking for ,'topical' rust.
I first came across this apparently consistent phenomenon when reading of arms and armor which resided over long periods as funerary relics in churches' tombs.
Not at all off topic, as one topic queried here has been the variation in the condition of period mail and what might cause some to be better preserved than others.
It is well known in 'arms forensics' that surprisingly some swords found in river beds or in many cases even ocean deposits where silt is so compacted, they are in better condition than those deposited in earth.
This has to do with goethite ? mineral reactions from within the metal.
Uh, that is the extent of my empirical scientific knowledge on this.

I had an old cannonball that sat in my desk for many years. One day it literally disintegrated into a heap of ferric residue, literally having corroded from within! despite it being static for so many years.
This returns to the possible levels or degree of purity ? of the iron used in certain instances, where weapons and armor were more 'worked'..perhaps.