Omani kattara

[Kubur]

Hello

What do you think about this kattara or seif from Oman??
What about the stamps on the blade, solingen, passau??
Do you have a date? 19 or 18th c.??
Please Ibrahim, no cold shower like with the khanjar!!


Thanks
Regards
Kubur

[A.alnakkas]

A nice authentic Katara. The blade is European and called "abu Falaj" in Oman. These old blades are highly sought after by collectors in Oman. I have had the pleasure to visit Oman this month, and viewed a big private collection with some interesting European blades. Also, the well known Bait alZubair museum have a good collection of Kataras with such European blades.

[ariel]

Very nice!

Hope I am not going to be lectured that it was destined for a mass dance party :-)

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Very nice!

Hope I am not going to be lectured that it was destined for a mass dance party :-)

Oh but you are Ariel, you are... MORE OR LESS

I hope your sitting down....

Nice fighting sword by the way Kubur. It is the business, a capable and fast fighting sword.

A fuller however as we all knows lessens weight but adds more surface area to create a stronger blade, something hardly needed to bust a move with your mates... The position of this fuller add rigidness to this section to keep the sword strong in your hands yet pliable at the business end, as a good sword should be.

I'd love to post a link to the thread where all the unanswered hard questions are asked about wild dancing claims, but I'll refrain for I am sure everyone has read the passages by now...PM me if you wish to view the passages.

EDIT, I didn't see you jump in there Spiral...


Gavin

[spiral]

Snap!

[Kubur]

Thank you all for your compliments and comments.

I know that the 'dancing' fighting swords are a 'delicate' subject.
The blade looks really strong and good for fights.
By the way, you can dance even with a fighting sword.
If you look the old photographs (end of 19th c.), women dance with Ottoman kilij on the head. Nowadays belly dancers continue this tradition.

I'm more interested in the stamps and a date for the blade...

Regards,
Kubur

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hello

What do you think about this kattara or seif from Oman??
What about the stamps on the blade, solingen, passau??
Do you have a date? 19 or 18th c.??
Please Ibrahim, no cold shower like with the khanjar!!


Thanks
Regards
Kubur

Salaams Kubur... Now this is a different quality altogether...The Omani Dancing Sword.. Mistakenly believed by many to have been used for fighting. ...Not so. This is a pageantry and dancing...wedding and special events like the religious festivals at both Eids annually... and for praising the ruling dynasty...Thus its dateable appearance can be more or less defined.

Essentially the flexibility of the sword is of paramount importance... If its not flexible its not a dancer... and since there is no such fighting straight arrangement logically no straight variant in this style ever existed. In real terms the description here is Saif or Sayf with the term Kattara being reserved for the curved variant though occasionally there is another curved known internationally as Shamshir but here also called Kattara..occasionally. I have to say also that people here use the generic word Sayf or saif meaning sword ... and I hope that is not confusing...but I know it is !

On this blade which if it is showing a single fuller from the grip to the tip it would be termed a Sayf Abu Falaj ...(the one with the channel) which although Falaj is a term for a man made water course... in this it suggests a blood groove which it isnt... In fact it simply gives added flex and less weight.

The squigles on the blade could be talismanic, however, Im not sure what it is meant to illustrate...A geometric sequence? or it could be after the Passau Wolf sometimes copied onto these blades... but think only of this blade as reminiscent or reflective of the old battle sword in that it was two edged and round tipped.... and used in pageants in honour of the forefathers who actually used the original Battle weapon... The Sayf Yamaani.

Ariel ... Would I go into a diatribe about this dancer?...No... but 2 million Omani People probably would.

Please see The Omani Sayf...at Forum Library. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=omani+sayf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

On this blade which if it is showing a single fuller from the grip to the tip it would be termed a Sayf Abu Falaj ...(the one with the channel) which although Falaj is a term for a man made water course... in this it suggests a blood groove which it isnt... In fact it simply gives added flex and less weight.
.

Fullering aids stiffness Ibrahim... not flex!

Its a way to reduce weight while maintaining maximum strength & stiffness.

Which is rather at odds with you theory that these are ceremonial toys not weapons.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Fullering aids stiffness Ibrahim... not flex!

Its a way to reduce weight while maintaining maximum strength & stiffness.

Which is rather at odds with you theory that these are ceremonial toys not weapons.

spiral

So you theorise that because they have fullers they must be fighting swords.. That is very interesting. I will forward this information to the National Museum. In reducing weight the flexibility can be better exercised in dancing and march past since the blades are lighter no?...the wrist flic easier done and the sword easier to dance with. Surely in the case of the dancing sayf the thinner the blade the more capable its flexibility. The blades are certainly not stiff... on Omani Sayfs. Without wishing to get into a wrangle on the dancer... since that could be misconstrued as argumentative... and since research is ongoing in this field across a whole spectrum of new discoveries which I am not at liberty to discuss... I will let that one simply float by... for now.

Regarding the strange squigles to the throat area I recall a very interesting group of talismanic marks and another from the gun mark on an algerian weapon ... They look similar. I believe that was an incantation in shortened Arabic form in the general range of the God is Great style..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

There a lot of wrist flicking going on alright...

I hope you take the time in this secret research to include support for all the questions previously left unanswered.

....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

There a lot of wrist flicking going on alright...

I hope you take the time in this secret research to include support for all the questions previously left unanswered.

....

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ..You are a very highly respected dealer and specialist in ethnographic weapons. It stands to reason that you may appreciate the idiosyncrasies of Omani weapons. It is extremely easy for outsiders to confuse the theory...since they have no yardstick to go by regarding Oman. I hope I have been able to raise the curtain somewhat on the predicament surrounding these artifacts... and to show how very different has been the sword development here. They have no relationship to how weapons evolved in China or anywhere else... The specifics of the Omani Straight Sayf which as you know I claim as pageant only...are absolute.

Oddly, all the weapons are joined by an invisible historical line. Peculiarly they are governed by a specific event and historically nothing is written... The key is in the Funun; The unwritten passed down by word of mouth traditions...

Other keys are found in documents as yet not disclosed... but under the full examination of my research department which has exciting disclosures that will ...be interesting. Whilst not every minute aspect has been uncovered ... I believe we are almost 90 % content...uncovered.... but Forum may have to wait a while longer for the entire disclosure as at this time they are under wraps.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi...

[spiral]

Re fullering & facts not theory's...

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

. In reducing weight the flexibility can be better exercised in dancing and march past since the blades are lighter no.

Actually No. To reduce weight & increase the flexibility you would just grind or forge it thinner.

Doing it in a central groove fuller, will maintain stiffness of the fullered area while reducing weight.

That's not a theory it is a scientific fact.

Otherwise flat or leaf springs would have often ground central fullers on them & I beams would not be I shaped.

It is very elementary physics.

spiral

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ariel ... Would I go into a diatribe about this dancer?...No... but 2 million Omani People probably would.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

No they wont. Atleast not the Omanis I met in Muscat and Nizwa. I have mentioned your whole hypothesis and they find it quite hilarious actually. And all the swords they have shown as private collection (not offered for sale) had European and wootz, stiff blades. Some who participate in this forum have seen the photographs I have taken there, but the collectors themselves had me promise not to share it publicly :-)

[A.alnakkas]

And Ibrahim, you may want to wait abit before contacting the national museum. They are closed until November. But you may also want to contact bait alzubair which has an extensive collection of Omani artifacts including kattaras, all of which had fighting thick blades. One with older mounts had a rapier like Portuguese blade and one had an etched European blade. Photos were not allowed there so I followed the rules and didnt take photos of any.

[Andrew]

Everyone:

This thread will not become another acrimonious "debate" regarding the use of these swords. State your positions and move on, please.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Everyone:

This thread will not become another acrimonious "debate" regarding the use of these swords. State your positions and move on, please.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

I very much respect your order and would follow it. But we are being bombarded with false information and lies about a rather prestigious field of arms. It only appropriate that we counter this false information.

I have gained permission to share some pieces. These are all private collections:

Here are saifs with European marks.

[A.alnakkas]

Old iron hilted swords. These are still worn to this day in weddings. But the old hilts would be given leather/silver dress.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I very much respect your order and would follow it. But we are being bombarded with false information and lies about a rather prestigious field of arms. It only appropriate that we counter this false information.

I have gained permission to share some pieces. These are all private collections:

Here are saifs with European marks.

Salaams...A.alnakkas These are swords that have the mark copied of the Passau Wolf. They are fine examples of the Omani Straight Sayf/Saif.
Enough said for now about those since it is up to the individual how they perceive what they were used for... For now; An agreement to disagree... By the way I am not a liar so please withdraw the remark to which I draw the attention of the Moderators.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi