Help to identifying a Wilkinson London blade

Belgian1 · 7th December 2018, 05:28 PM

Hello to all members,
I am amazed by this saber "hanger" which looks like a common sword used, among other things, by the English Police, the customs, etc. around 1850. This is not the model that made me buy it, but it is the plot he suggests with his stamping "Wilkinson London" which I did not know yet this type of marking that would be before the move to Pall Mall.
Is it possible that it was a precursor by James Wilkinson when he was still in his father-in-law's workshop in Whitechapel? Can it be a "hanger" for rifleman ... or bandsman of the Napoleonic period?
Curved blade of 60.3 cm is extremely solid, flat back of 0.7 cm by 40 cm and then becomes double edged. Total size of 74.3 cm. Ricasso 3.4cm wide then shrunk to 3.1cm wide.
The blade has not been cut, it is of manufactured origin. A detail that also seems to differentiate it from the types of Police "hanger" is that the hilt is with 8 bulbs and not 10 or 11 as for the ones from 1856.
Do you want to participate or help me clarify this enigma that promises to be exciting.
Kind regards from Belgium ;-)

MacCathain · 7th December 2018, 07:59 PM

I think it is a police sword. The stamp was used by Wilkinson on trooper's and OR's weapons from at least the mid-1800s, and I think the number of lobes on the grip is simply due to manufacturers' variations.

Check out this web site -- http://www.oldpolicecellsmuseum.org..../police_swords -- and scroll down to the 9th photo on the home page where you'll find another 8-lobe example, the caption for which reads: "19th Century British Police Cutlass Sword 74cm long overall with a 61cm long curved blade." The measurements fit well with your example.

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2018, 08:44 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12612

Agree totally with MacCathain , this is a British constabulary hanger which is probably from 1880s. The book title listed in the linked thread from 2010 sounds promising:
"Those Entrusted with Arms: A History of Police, Post, Customs and Private Use of Weapons in Britain" by Frederick Wilkinson.

Also as noted in my post there:
"William Parker and Parker Field, Gunmakers" by Frederick Wilkinson in 'Arms & Armor Annual" (ed. Robert Held, 1973, pp.275-282) is most helpful.

While civilian weapons, these are very esoteric items in the collecting community and intriguing elements in the transition to civilian police forces from military patrols. While many police arms were made by the Parker firm noted, it would seem this was a private contract with Wilkinson probably in this later period. In earlier times with the Wilkinson firm they were primarily engaged in supplying officers swords, and moved into other ranks and private swords later in the century.

While later in the century, this example has a very nice blade and is an item from a very specialized field of collecting, also from most interesting times in these areas of London.

Belgian1 · 8th December 2018, 10:39 AM

Hello Mccathain, Hello Jim, Hello to everyone and thank you for your interventions,

I knew the excellent links to which you refer me and thank you.

You will think that I am "stubborn" but I still have the idea that it is a hanger of the early nineteenth of the Georgian period by the James Wilkinson Workshop. But I will try to explain my stubbornness ;-) which is probably not without interest and perhaps deserves to be dug ... I can not explain the mark "Wilkinson London" which should logically correspond to the beginning of the resumption of the Workshop of Nock in London Withechapel by his son-in-law James Wilkinson in 1804. I think it is proved that James Wilkinson made very early bayonets and why not maybe some sabers but the markings of this time are little hardly documented or simply not at all for lack of surviving material. It is from the arrival in the company of his son Henry Wilkinson, in 1824, that the known markings of this period are "Wilkinson & Son" then "Wilkinson & Co" but that you know it perfectly.
I can not explain that the period of activity of Henry Wilkinson, could manufacture blades for the police or the troop with a different marking. But also, if these hanger blades had a different marking and after 1844, why do not they wear the stamp of quality so important for Wilkinson House and guaranteeing sufficient strength for the fight, which contributed to its success in the world. If so and to this day, I am not aware of this marking "Wilkinson London" mid or late nineteenth, which seems too simple and '' pseudo craft '' for an Armorer as important using the most machines perfected for the time and the image of its blade as a guarantee of quality and differentiation. But also I would like to add without risking you from falling asleep by reading me, that the inscription "Wilkinson London" is struck and not engraved, it still makes me think that it is a pre- industrial, so certainly before the move of Henry Wilkinson to '' Pall Mall '' in 1824.
So at my idea, either it's a forerunner of the James Wilkinson period before 1824, or it's a fake Wilkinson brand but on a very high quality blade for the period.
Now I tThank you for reading me if you have reached the end

.. and I let you take your minds

and still hope to benefit from your constructive advice.
PS: If you have a photo of this type of mark from Wilkinson with a dating, I'll be happy to see it because I was unable to find that one

Kind regards from Belgium
Fabrice

Norman McCormick · 8th December 2018, 04:31 PM

Hi Fabrice,
1856 Pattern Pioneer sword issued in Jan 1900 with a similar stamp. I think you're maybe confusing some issue pattern swords i.e Police, Pioneer, N.C.O.'s etc., and commissioned swords with regards to the markings. Hope this may clarify things a little.
Regards,
Norman.

MacCathain · 8th December 2018, 05:09 PM

Here's a p1905 British Staff Sergeant's sword with the plain Wilkinson stamp. As Norman indicated, troopers', Other Ranks', and non-military weapons were not often treated to the elaborate etched panels you find on officer's weapons; a simple stamp was good enough. It's very common.

Belgian1 · 8th December 2018, 06:05 PM

Hello everyone,
I'm not quite convinced yet but I'm a fact that you teach me interesting things

.
This blade guides me to the early nineteenth but, because there is a but, I will try to find if Wilkinson has produced this type of blade for police hanger. When I have raised this mystery, if I succeed, then I will present to you to share, my "conclusions"

For now I put this beautiful "enigma" next to my other British "treasure"

Kind regards from Belgium

Norman McCormick · 8th December 2018, 07:36 PM

Hi,
Perhaps this might help. http://www.oldpolicecellsmuseum.org..../police_swords

Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 9th December 2018, 07:05 PM

Hi Fabrice,
Another N.C.O. sword from Wilkinson.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2018, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgian1

Hello everyone,
I'm not quite convinced yet but I'm a fact that you teach me interesting things

.
This blade guides me to the early nineteenth but, because there is a but, I will try to find if Wilkinson has produced this type of blade for police hanger. When I have raised this mystery, if I succeed, then I will present to you to share, my "conclusions"

For now I put this beautiful "enigma" next to my other British "treasure"

Kind regards from Belgium

Fabrice, if I may say so, I will tell you that your stubbornness and tenacity in not accepting everything presented is the mark of a true researcher, and I admire your approach. Actually it is not that anyone is 'teaching' anyone else, but we are all learning together.

This field of collecting is one that is seldom traveled and items are, though considered 'common' or munitions grade....they are indeed rare as they were not produced in large volume.

Your theory that this could be an earlier example produced by Wilkinson may actually have possible plausibility as Wilkinson's firm as you know was primarily a gun maker in earlier years (from the Nock firm). As you note these firms often engaged in carrying bayonets and other items besides guns in the manner of contract production companies. There may be the case where Wilkinson might have contracted a subcontractor to produce a number of these on their behalf, and used a 'racked' stamp to place their name at the forte. These kinds of 'cross contracts' or subcontractors seem to be a regular element of business in these cases which was not necessarily well recorded other than probably daily accounting processes.

It is great when someone posts an item, especially an unusual one, and actively researches and shares their findings as well as querying other details here. Well done Fabrice! and please keep us posted OK?

Belgian1 · 11th December 2018, 10:06 AM

Hi Jim, and good morning to all members.
Thank you for your point of view. I decided to join your discussion forum because it is known on the internet that the vast majority of members are first and foremost passionate and looking for "historical" answers to their questions but also a real group of voluntary help and exchange of information, which is becoming rare in the domain of the collection.
Over time, I hope to have the opportunity to find another owner of this kind of hanger with the same mark to share our opinions or certitudes and at this time I will not fail to share my information with you to participate in the great interest of this Forum and that continues its historic and "educational" mission

Kind regards from Belgium
Fabrice

7th December 2018, 05:28 PM	#1
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Help to identifying a Wilkinson London blade Hello to all members, I am amazed by this saber "hanger" which looks like a common sword used, among other things, by the English Police, the customs, etc. around 1850. This is not the model that made me buy it, but it is the plot he suggests with his stamping "Wilkinson London" which I did not know yet this type of marking that would be before the move to Pall Mall. Is it possible that it was a precursor by James Wilkinson when he was still in his father-in-law's workshop in Whitechapel? Can it be a "hanger" for rifleman ... or bandsman of the Napoleonic period? Curved blade of 60.3 cm is extremely solid, flat back of 0.7 cm by 40 cm and then becomes double edged. Total size of 74.3 cm. Ricasso 3.4cm wide then shrunk to 3.1cm wide. The blade has not been cut, it is of manufactured origin. A detail that also seems to differentiate it from the types of Police "hanger" is that the hilt is with 8 bulbs and not 10 or 11 as for the ones from 1856. Do you want to participate or help me clarify this enigma that promises to be exciting. Kind regards from Belgium ;-) Attached Images

8th December 2018, 10:39 AM	#4
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Wilkinson "precursor" hanger blade ???? Hello Mccathain, Hello Jim, Hello to everyone and thank you for your interventions, I knew the excellent links to which you refer me and thank you. You will think that I am "stubborn" but I still have the idea that it is a hanger of the early nineteenth of the Georgian period by the James Wilkinson Workshop. But I will try to explain my stubbornness ;-) which is probably not without interest and perhaps deserves to be dug ... I can not explain the mark "Wilkinson London" which should logically correspond to the beginning of the resumption of the Workshop of Nock in London Withechapel by his son-in-law James Wilkinson in 1804. I think it is proved that James Wilkinson made very early bayonets and why not maybe some sabers but the markings of this time are little hardly documented or simply not at all for lack of surviving material. It is from the arrival in the company of his son Henry Wilkinson, in 1824, that the known markings of this period are "Wilkinson & Son" then "Wilkinson & Co" but that you know it perfectly. I can not explain that the period of activity of Henry Wilkinson, could manufacture blades for the police or the troop with a different marking. But also, if these hanger blades had a different marking and after 1844, why do not they wear the stamp of quality so important for Wilkinson House and guaranteeing sufficient strength for the fight, which contributed to its success in the world. If so and to this day, I am not aware of this marking "Wilkinson London" mid or late nineteenth, which seems too simple and '' pseudo craft '' for an Armorer as important using the most machines perfected for the time and the image of its blade as a guarantee of quality and differentiation. But also I would like to add without risking you from falling asleep by reading me, that the inscription "Wilkinson London" is struck and not engraved, it still makes me think that it is a pre- industrial, so certainly before the move of Henry Wilkinson to '' Pall Mall '' in 1824. So at my idea, either it's a forerunner of the James Wilkinson period before 1824, or it's a fake Wilkinson brand but on a very high quality blade for the period. Now I tThank you for reading me if you have reached the end .. and I let you take your minds and still hope to benefit from your constructive advice. PS: If you have a photo of this type of mark from Wilkinson with a dating, I'll be happy to see it because I was unable to find that one Kind regards from Belgium Fabrice

8th December 2018, 04:31 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Fabrice, 1856 Pattern Pioneer sword issued in Jan 1900 with a similar stamp. I think you're maybe confusing some issue pattern swords i.e Police, Pioneer, N.C.O.'s etc., and commissioned swords with regards to the markings. Hope this may clarify things a little. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

8th December 2018, 05:09 PM	#6
MacCathain Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 66	Here's a p1905 British Staff Sergeant's sword with the plain Wilkinson stamp. As Norman indicated, troopers', Other Ranks', and non-military weapons were not often treated to the elaborate etched panels you find on officer's weapons; a simple stamp was good enough. It's very common. Attached Images

9th December 2018, 07:05 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Fabrice, Another N.C.O. sword from Wilkinson. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

7th December 2018, 07:59 PM	#2
MacCathain Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 66	I think it is a police sword. The stamp was used by Wilkinson on trooper's and OR's weapons from at least the mid-1800s, and I think the number of lobes on the grip is simply due to manufacturers' variations. Check out this web site -- http://www.oldpolicecellsmuseum.org..../police_swords -- and scroll down to the 9th photo on the home page where you'll find another 8-lobe example, the caption for which reads: "19th Century British Police Cutlass Sword 74cm long overall with a 61cm long curved blade." The measurements fit well with your example.

7th December 2018, 08:44 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12612 Agree totally with MacCathain , this is a British constabulary hanger which is probably from 1880s. The book title listed in the linked thread from 2010 sounds promising: "Those Entrusted with Arms: A History of Police, Post, Customs and Private Use of Weapons in Britain" by Frederick Wilkinson. Also as noted in my post there: "William Parker and Parker Field, Gunmakers" by Frederick Wilkinson in 'Arms & Armor Annual" (ed. Robert Held, 1973, pp.275-282) is most helpful. While civilian weapons, these are very esoteric items in the collecting community and intriguing elements in the transition to civilian police forces from military patrols. While many police arms were made by the Parker firm noted, it would seem this was a private contract with Wilkinson probably in this later period. In earlier times with the Wilkinson firm they were primarily engaged in supplying officers swords, and moved into other ranks and private swords later in the century. While later in the century, this example has a very nice blade and is an item from a very specialized field of collecting, also from most interesting times in these areas of London.

8th December 2018, 06:05 PM	#7
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Hello everyone, I'm not quite convinced yet but I'm a fact that you teach me interesting things . This blade guides me to the early nineteenth but, because there is a but, I will try to find if Wilkinson has produced this type of blade for police hanger. When I have raised this mystery, if I succeed, then I will present to you to share, my "conclusions" For now I put this beautiful "enigma" next to my other British "treasure" Kind regards from Belgium

8th December 2018, 07:36 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Perhaps this might help. http://www.oldpolicecellsmuseum.org..../police_swords Regards, Norman.

11th December 2018, 10:06 AM	#11
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Wilkinson "precursor" hanger blade ???? Hi Jim, and good morning to all members. Thank you for your point of view. I decided to join your discussion forum because it is known on the internet that the vast majority of members are first and foremost passionate and looking for "historical" answers to their questions but also a real group of voluntary help and exchange of information, which is becoming rare in the domain of the collection. Over time, I hope to have the opportunity to find another owner of this kind of hanger with the same mark to share our opinions or certitudes and at this time I will not fail to share my information with you to participate in the great interest of this Forum and that continues its historic and "educational" mission Kind regards from Belgium Fabrice