Butcher Bayonet (Sawback)

Iliad · 18th April 2009, 11:48 PM

Hi all,
Another item from my collection, not especially wonderful or interesting, but enables me to ask some questions:
1.I have read that German troops in WW1 found with this butcher bayonet were shot on the spot for carrying a barbaric weapon. Is this true?
2.When did sawback bayonets first appear?
3.Did American armed forces ever use sawback bayonets, either before or after the Civil War?
Many thanks for help, my knowledge is increasing daily!
Brian

Jim McDougall · 19th April 2009, 03:06 AM

Hi Brian,
Thank you for posting this! and for the great questions. I spent some time reviewing some notes etc. and learned a bit on these, although I've known about them for a long time (one of these was one of my first pieces!

This is a German M1898/05 bayonet used for the Gewehr 98 rifle. Great markings on this one. These were issued to the German 'pioneer' troops who were of course engineer styled troops. The sawteeth were for cutting down posts holding barbed wire and other field functions involving such type use.

The tale of these being 'outlawed' is commonly told, but I have never found any substantiation of this officially, and the idea is very similar to the stories of lancers in the Napoleonic wars being given no quarter, and outlawing of crossbows during medieval times etc. The truth seems that while this may have been a well known perception, there was never anything official in protocol. The fact that the bayonets were well known is noted in a 1918 account, "...bayonets are hard to remove once they have been caught between the ribs, especially the sawtooth bayonets many of the Germans carried". (" The Mammoth Book of Eyewitness WWI" Jon. E.Lewis 2003, p.408).
Another reference noted one of these imbedded in a body, forcing the German to leave both the gun and bayonet behind, emphasizing the rather impractical side effect to the soldier using this weapon. There are in fact notes suggesting that the earlier forms of the German M1898/05 bayonet had the sawteeth, while later ones did not. Whether this was due to the tales from the front of the allied reaction to these, or whether the problem of them becoming imbedded as these it would be hard to say. It does appear that Schmidt Rubin kept making them with sawteeth, and the idea of actively grinding the teeth off seems far fetched.

Though the idea of the allies being abhorred at these frightening looking weapons, the British surely must have known of the earlier bayonet they had with these sawteeth, and certainly the pioneer swords of a number of nations were known as well.

It seems that as weapons, the truth was these these were terribly impractical, as noted by Sir Richard Burton much earlier in his 1884 "Book of the Sword" (p.137) regarding the saw teeth, "...this apparantly silly contrivance is found on a large scale on Indian sabres; its latter appearance farther west is on the precious saw bayonet, a theoretical multum in parvo equally useless for flesh and fuel".

The tooth shaped edge was known as early as the middle ages, as Burton also notes (p.51) and "...that it is not yet extinct the absurd saw bayonet proves".

Apparantly Burton saw the drawbacks pragmatically as a weapon, and apparantly may have been referring to the earliest regulation pattern sawtooth bayonet I am aware of, which was the British M1870 'elcho' bayonet with a blade shaped like a kukri and sawtooth back.
These, the German M1898's and the Schmidt Rubin Swiss bayonets of 1878, 1887, and 1914 (1911) are as far as I know the only forms. I am not aware of an American bayonet with sawtooth (though I know of one that had a shovel!!).

This is what I could find.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 19th April 2009, 04:42 AM

Hello Brian,
Jim, its interesting that you say that this was one of your first pieces, as it was mine! I always liked these type bayonets and mine had a rare maker mark, but it had been polished with naval jelly or some such, completely ruining the patina. Brilliant summation and I would only add that besides pioneer swords, there were some hunting hangers that also had the saw teeth, presumably to help gut/saw up the game? Grisly, but true. Still a nice WWI era piece...

Jim McDougall · 19th April 2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Brian,
Jim, its interesting that you say that this was one of your first pieces, as it was mine! I always liked these type bayonets and mine had a rare maker mark, but it had been polished with naval jelly or some such, completely ruining the patina. Brilliant summation and I would only add that besides pioneer swords, there were some hunting hangers that also had the saw teeth, presumably to help gut/saw up the game? Grisly, but true. Still a nice WWI era piece...

Hi Mark,
Thats spooky!!! Of course back in those days in war surplus stores there were piles of bayonets of all kinds in barrels...about 50 cents or so each!
You're right, the old 17th century Hounslow hangers had sawtooth backs, so it wasn't as if these were unheard of.

All the best,
Jim

cornelistromp · 19th April 2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Mark,
Thats spooky!!! Of course back in those days in war surplus stores there were piles of bayonets of all kinds in barrels...about 50 cents or so each!
You're right, the old 17th century Hounslow hangers had sawtooth backs, so it wasn't as if these were unheard of.

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,

Also the Germans had them during the 80 year war 1568-1648.
please see pictures of broadsword around 1620, I had in my collection

Best regards

broadaxe · 19th April 2009, 12:41 PM

I just wanted to say that it was very common to find hunting swords of the 16th-17th centuries equipped with saw back, even on large size weapons like this hand-and-a-half saber, photo'd in the Royal Armouries, Leeds.

Norman McCormick · 19th April 2009, 07:37 PM

Hi,
One without the sawback, I have always assumed this example was issued to the Bavarian 5th Regiment, I'd like to take this opportunity to find out. Maybe someone can verify or set me straight. Many thanks.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. My apologies Iliad for straying from the initial post.

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2009, 12:13 AM

Thanks so much Cornelis, Sa'ar and Norman for the great examples and input on these. Its really good to fill in the blanks on some of these items we are all reasonably familiar with, but never really had much detail on.

Good posting Brian!!! Keep 'em comin' !!

All the best,
Jim

Iliad · 20th April 2009, 03:22 AM

Gee Whiz, gollygosh and Goodness Gracious Me!! I am amazed at the responses to my posting.............and what great pics you guys have posted!
Broadaxe, if I saw someone coming at me with that sword which you pictured, I suspect that the old bowels would loosen somewhat and I would disappear in a cloud of dust! Thanks guys for the info provided, I am having enormous fun with the Ethno site and have found a whole bunch of new friends. (Except that I haven't yet forgiven Gav for telling me that my prized Moroccan Saif's were 1970's Spanish fakes! I am plotting revenge!)

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2009, 06:25 AM

Hey Brian,
As they say here in Texas, yee hah!!! We're rolling now.

Whats this about fake Moroccan sa'ifs ? Better post some pictures so we can get them in the 'rogues gallery'

We've all gotten stung by the 'tin men'.
Gav is the new sheriff in town and knows how to spot that stuff.

All the best,
Jim

Iliad · 20th April 2009, 07:50 AM

Hi Jim,
The fake Saif's are in the Ethnographic Forum, date 27 December 2008. I can't find an identifying number on the thread, so can't be more specific.
I really thought that they were great and I was so proud of myself for acquiring them!! However, Gav is a great guy and I don't really hold a grudge.
BUT........I have a Chinese Broadsword that he wants......heh, heh, heh
Brian

Gavin Nugent · 20th April 2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Gee Whiz, gollygosh and Goodness Gracious Me!! I am amazed at the responses to my posting.............and what great pics you guys have posted!
Broadaxe, if I saw someone coming at me with that sword which you pictured, I suspect that the old bowels would loosen somewhat and I would disappear in a cloud of dust! Thanks guys for the info provided, I am having enormous fun with the Ethno site and have found a whole bunch of new friends. (Except that I haven't yet forgiven Gav for telling me that my prized Moroccan Saif's were 1970's Spanish fakes! I am plotting revenge!)

G'day everyone, it never ceases to amaze me the sum knowledge on arms within this forum and some of the pieces that appear for discussion and better still, the friendships and communications that develop between members.

I saw my name mentioned so I just turn away from the books and writing for a moment and pop in and say great to see you getting amongst it Brian but becareful with revenge

, I may start with the Spanish references again

or worse yet out with the Kiwi jokes ole mate

. I am glad to see you are starting to get more of your collection out there Brian as you see we all benefit from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hey Brian,
As they say here in Texas, yee hah!!! We're rolling now.

Whats this about fake Moroccan sa'ifs ? Better post some pictures so we can get them in the 'rogues gallery'

We've all gotten stung by the 'tin men'.
Gav is the new sheriff in town and knows how to spot that stuff.

All the best,
Jim

They see me rollin, they hatin. Oh Jim, you've put me in it now

I know everyone has a sting or two in their sides from the tin men and this topic has been touched on in a number of posting, sometimes you gotta pay for the education, sometimes you just plain out study the professor, other times you just sit there with egg on your face and think what just happen, no matter what, it is all part of life and character building and never to be fretted upon.
I can't be the Sheriff Jim, I ain't got a badge nor a gun for that matter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi Jim,
The fake Saif's are in the Ethnographic Forum, date 27 December 2008. I can't find an identifying number on the thread, so can't be more specific.
I really thought that they were great and I was so proud of myself for acquiring them!! However, Gav is a great guy and I don't really hold a grudge.
BUT........I have a Chinese Broadsword that he wants......heh, heh, heh
Brian

Thanks for the kind words Brian, you are all a great bunch of guys...now did someone say Chinese Broadsword...I know she is in safe hands Brian, I have to put the offer on the back burner for a while though, enjoy it as it looks to be a nice piece.
Shame I cannot offer anything up on this ole war dog, no knowledge base here at all.

Gav

asomotif · 7th March 2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:

have always assumed this example was issued to the Bavarian 5th Regiment, I'd like to take this opportunity to find out

Dug up this old thread again.

Norman, The big crowned "L" is from Ludwig, making is Bavarian for sure.
See this website : http://www.worldbayonets.com/Misc__P..._markings.html

5 R. : being 5th regiment sounds logical.

I will post some more pics shortly.

best regards,
Willem

Norman McCormick · 8th March 2010, 08:09 PM

Hi Willem,
Many thanks for the info re the bayonet. The 15 below the crowned L would suggest, as you rightly say, Ludwig III of Bavaria (1913-1918) with a date of 1915 for the bayonet itself. The enigma is the crowned K which appears below the crowned L suggesting Karl of Wurttemberg (1864-1891) on a 1898/05 bayonet !!!! Any ideas gratefully accepted

My Regards,
Norman.

celtan · 9th March 2010, 03:05 AM

Older "surplus" blade in a "new" mount...?

I have seen Charles III 18th C blades in 19th C swords...

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Willem,
Many thanks for the info re the bayonet. The 15 below the crowned L would suggest, as you rightly say, Ludwig III of Bavaria (1913-1918) with a date of 1915 for the bayonet itself. The enigma is the crowned K which appears below the crowned L suggesting Karl of Wurttemberg (1864-1891) on a 1898/05 bayonet !!!! Any ideas gratefully accepted

My Regards,
Norman.

junker · 9th March 2010, 09:13 PM

Hi,
coming back to the first question about the tale of the sawtooth.
I have seen a bayo in an auction from which the sawtooth was removed.
But i would agree with Jim that it was in fact more unpractical to leave the weapon and this was the reason why.
Dirk

18th April 2009, 11:48 PM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Butcher Bayonet (Sawback) Hi all, Another item from my collection, not especially wonderful or interesting, but enables me to ask some questions: 1.I have read that German troops in WW1 found with this butcher bayonet were shot on the spot for carrying a barbaric weapon. Is this true? 2.When did sawback bayonets first appear? 3.Did American armed forces ever use sawback bayonets, either before or after the Civil War? Many thanks for help, my knowledge is increasing daily! Brian Attached Images

19th April 2009, 03:06 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Brian, Thank you for posting this! and for the great questions. I spent some time reviewing some notes etc. and learned a bit on these, although I've known about them for a long time (one of these was one of my first pieces! This is a German M1898/05 bayonet used for the Gewehr 98 rifle. Great markings on this one. These were issued to the German 'pioneer' troops who were of course engineer styled troops. The sawteeth were for cutting down posts holding barbed wire and other field functions involving such type use. The tale of these being 'outlawed' is commonly told, but I have never found any substantiation of this officially, and the idea is very similar to the stories of lancers in the Napoleonic wars being given no quarter, and outlawing of crossbows during medieval times etc. The truth seems that while this may have been a well known perception, there was never anything official in protocol. The fact that the bayonets were well known is noted in a 1918 account, "...bayonets are hard to remove once they have been caught between the ribs, especially the sawtooth bayonets many of the Germans carried". (" The Mammoth Book of Eyewitness WWI" Jon. E.Lewis 2003, p.408). Another reference noted one of these imbedded in a body, forcing the German to leave both the gun and bayonet behind, emphasizing the rather impractical side effect to the soldier using this weapon. There are in fact notes suggesting that the earlier forms of the German M1898/05 bayonet had the sawteeth, while later ones did not. Whether this was due to the tales from the front of the allied reaction to these, or whether the problem of them becoming imbedded as these it would be hard to say. It does appear that Schmidt Rubin kept making them with sawteeth, and the idea of actively grinding the teeth off seems far fetched. Though the idea of the allies being abhorred at these frightening looking weapons, the British surely must have known of the earlier bayonet they had with these sawteeth, and certainly the pioneer swords of a number of nations were known as well. It seems that as weapons, the truth was these these were terribly impractical, as noted by Sir Richard Burton much earlier in his 1884 "Book of the Sword" (p.137) regarding the saw teeth, "...this apparantly silly contrivance is found on a large scale on Indian sabres; its latter appearance farther west is on the precious saw bayonet, a theoretical multum in parvo equally useless for flesh and fuel". The tooth shaped edge was known as early as the middle ages, as Burton also notes (p.51) and "...that it is not yet extinct the absurd saw bayonet proves". Apparantly Burton saw the drawbacks pragmatically as a weapon, and apparantly may have been referring to the earliest regulation pattern sawtooth bayonet I am aware of, which was the British M1870 'elcho' bayonet with a blade shaped like a kukri and sawtooth back. These, the German M1898's and the Schmidt Rubin Swiss bayonets of 1878, 1887, and 1914 (1911) are as far as I know the only forms. I am not aware of an American bayonet with sawtooth (though I know of one that had a shovel!!). This is what I could find. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th April 2009 at 03:18 AM.

19th April 2009, 12:41 PM	#6
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I just wanted to say that it was very common to find hunting swords of the 16th-17th centuries equipped with saw back, even on large size weapons like this hand-and-a-half saber, photo'd in the Royal Armouries, Leeds. Attached Images

19th April 2009, 07:37 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, One without the sawback, I have always assumed this example was issued to the Bavarian 5th Regiment, I'd like to take this opportunity to find out. Maybe someone can verify or set me straight. Many thanks. Regards, Norman. P.S. My apologies Iliad for straying from the initial post. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 19th April 2009 at 08:24 PM.

20th April 2009, 07:50 AM	#11
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Butcher Bayonet Hi Jim, The fake Saif's are in the Ethnographic Forum, date 27 December 2008. I can't find an identifying number on the thread, so can't be more specific. I really thought that they were great and I was so proud of myself for acquiring them!! However, Gav is a great guy and I don't really hold a grudge. BUT........I have a Chinese Broadsword that he wants......heh, heh, heh Brian

19th April 2009, 04:42 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Brian, Jim, its interesting that you say that this was one of your first pieces, as it was mine! I always liked these type bayonets and mine had a rare maker mark, but it had been polished with naval jelly or some such, completely ruining the patina. Brilliant summation and I would only add that besides pioneer swords, there were some hunting hangers that also had the saw teeth, presumably to help gut/saw up the game? Grisly, but true. Still a nice WWI era piece...

20th April 2009, 12:13 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thanks so much Cornelis, Sa'ar and Norman for the great examples and input on these. Its really good to fill in the blanks on some of these items we are all reasonably familiar with, but never really had much detail on. Good posting Brian!!! Keep 'em comin' !! All the best, Jim

20th April 2009, 03:22 AM	#9
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Gee Whiz, gollygosh and Goodness Gracious Me!! I am amazed at the responses to my posting.............and what great pics you guys have posted! Broadaxe, if I saw someone coming at me with that sword which you pictured, I suspect that the old bowels would loosen somewhat and I would disappear in a cloud of dust! Thanks guys for the info provided, I am having enormous fun with the Ethno site and have found a whole bunch of new friends. (Except that I haven't yet forgiven Gav for telling me that my prized Moroccan Saif's were 1970's Spanish fakes! I am plotting revenge!)

20th April 2009, 06:25 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hey Brian, As they say here in Texas, yee hah!!! We're rolling now. Whats this about fake Moroccan sa'ifs ? Better post some pictures so we can get them in the 'rogues gallery' We've all gotten stung by the 'tin men'. Gav is the new sheriff in town and knows how to spot that stuff. All the best, Jim

8th March 2010, 08:09 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Willem, Many thanks for the info re the bayonet. The 15 below the crowned L would suggest, as you rightly say, Ludwig III of Bavaria (1913-1918) with a date of 1915 for the bayonet itself. The enigma is the crowned K which appears below the crowned L suggesting Karl of Wurttemberg (1864-1891) on a 1898/05 bayonet !!!! Any ideas gratefully accepted My Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th March 2010 at 08:31 PM.

9th March 2010, 09:13 PM	#16
junker Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 140	removed sawtooth Hi, coming back to the first question about the tale of the sawtooth. I have seen a bayo in an auction from which the sawtooth was removed. But i would agree with Jim that it was in fact more unpractical to leave the weapon and this was the reason why. Dirk